Guest Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Okay, so beastmen Great Bray Shaman has a spell which summons a "monster" model. I've been told that this doesn't have to be a monster within my starting forces, but can be any from my collection so long as it has the monster keyword. Now, my Lord of Change allows allied chaos wizards to summon a "lord of change." Kairos Fateweaver has the Lord of Change keyword, same as the actual Lord of Change model. Can I use the Summon Lord of Change spell to summon Kairos? Not looking to be cheesy, more like, can I really do this....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Welcome to Unbound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Okay, so beastmen Great Bray Shaman has a spell which summons a "monster" model. I've been told that this doesn't have to be a monster within my starting forces, but can be any from my collection so long as it has the monster keyword. Now, my Lord of Change allows allied chaos wizards to summon a "lord of change." Kairos Fateweaver has the Lord of Change keyword, same as the actual Lord of Change model. Can I use the Summon Lord of Change spell to summon Kairos? Not looking to be cheesy, more like, can I really do this....? Yes,this can be done.. Chain summoning RAW is only limited by the number of models you own,the space on the board and ability to continually pass summoning rolls.At this point its easily something that can be broken.Im also hesitant at this point to house rule it as this is the way they are playing it at Warhammer World currently. Mass summoning is certainly an issue,however its not as bad as people originally thought it was going to be.Now yes,if you have 50 flamers and proceed to summon several scrolls of them in the first couple of turns of the game then I can certainly see a problem.But as far as basic unit summoning goes it will only get a player so far,especially if they are trying to push across the battlefield with just single wound fodder troops.Keep in mind that summoned units have to be 9" from an enemy model AND within 18" of the caster,,this can be very easy to counter with unit placement,especially when the non summoning player is on defence.However as you seen last night its not nearly as difficult when the summoning player is on defence,heh.Also strong shooting lists with Warmachines and archery units can wreck most casters rather early in the game.There is even a few scrolls out there that allow units to appear as close as 3" to an enemy unit when they enter the board(Stormcast have a hero that can allow this once per game).These kinds of counters can wreck as summoning list early on.So once again,barring a few extreme situations I don't see the need to house rule on this without more testing. Anyhow,sorry I got to rambling again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrad Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would actually go the other way with this one. Chaos wizards know the common Lord of Change but not the Lord of Change Kairos Fateweaver. Kairos is a Lord of Change but he is a special character and the chaos wizards do not have his full title listed as the spell they know. This would be similar to chaos wizards and the three greater daemons of Khorne. Whilst a chaos wizard knows how to summon any of the three Bloodthirsters he does not have the ability to summon Skarbrand who is also a Bloodthirster. Another great example of something to discuss before a battle. AOS is a great, open game. Do with it what you will. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would actually go the other way with this one. Chaos wizards know the common Lord of Change but not the Lord of Change Kairos Fateweaver. Kairos is a Lord of Change but he is a special character and the chaos wizards do not have his full title listed as the spell they know. This would be similar to chaos wizards and the three greater daemons of Khorne. Whilst a chaos wizard knows how to summon any of the three Bloodthirsters he does not have the ability to summon Skarbrand who is also a Bloodthirster. Another great example of something to discuss before a battle. AOS is a great, open game. Do with it what you will. That makes a lot of sense:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would actually go the other way with this one. Chaos wizards know the common Lord of Change but not the Lord of Change Kairos Fateweaver. Kairos is a Lord of Change but he is a special character and the chaos wizards do not have his full title listed as the spell they know. This would be similar to chaos wizards and the three greater daemons of Khorne. Whilst a chaos wizard knows how to summon any of the three Bloodthirsters he does not have the ability to summon Skarbrand who is also a Bloodthirster. Another great example of something to discuss before a battle. AOS is a great, open game. Do with it what you will. So, it's of note that the keyword for each of the three bloodthirsters is different, while the LORD OF CHANGE is the same keyword on both the lord of change and kairos. Skarbrand is listed as a substitute warscroll for a specific type of bloodthirster. I did look through the daemon book closely, this is the only time in the daemon "book" where a spell could potentially summon multiple types of units. Closest was Karnak who is a FLESH HOUND while the flesh hounds are FLESH HOUNDS and the spell requires a unit of 5, which Karnak cannot replicate (he's a unit of 1). It's entirely possible that this is an oversight from GW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrad Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Each Bloodthirster keyword is listed for each type of Bloodthirster, but nowhere is it listed that a chaos wizard knows Summon Lord of Change Kairos Fateweaver. Also each Daemon Warscroll has a summon entry under the magic section. Kairos and Skarbrand do not. Kharnak falls into this same category. He is a Flesh Hound but summon flesh hound does not include Kharnak. Basically if you want to take a named special character he has to be part of your starting force. That's the way I see it and that's the way I'm playing it with my Deamon army! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Each Bloodthirster keyword is listed for each type of Bloodthirster, but nowhere is it listed that a chaos wizard knows Summon Lord of Change Kairos Fateweaver. Also each Daemon Warscroll has a summon entry under the magic section. Kairos and Skarbrand do not. Kharnak falls into this same category. He is a Flesh Hound but summon flesh hound does not include Kharnak. Basically if you want to take a named special character he has to be part of your starting force. That's the way I see it and that's the way I'm playing it with my Deamon army! I would agree, if not for the Great Bray Shaman. Lord of Change is both a keyword and a unit entry, which is where I find the confusion. Can a Great Bray Shaman summon Kairos? It does not name Kairos in the spell, but it does name Monster, which is one of Kairos' keywords. Seems like if the Great Bray Shaman can summon by keyword, the the Summon Lord of Change should also summon by the keyword "Lord of Change." If the Great Bray Shaman can not summon Kairos, what can he summon? I will note I lack the model for Kairos, so will not be even attempting this anytime soon. A ruling on this one does affect the odds that I will acquire one for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrad Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 ok so your asking about the Savage Dominion ability. The intent for this ability is to summon a Monster from the wilds or woods and not from the realms of chaos. Yes all Daemons are considered monsters but not all monsters are Daemons. So the Great Bray is trying to get a giant, cygor, gorgon, jabberslythe, Chimera, etc. to fight for him. A monster from the Beastman army list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 ok so your asking about the Savage Dominion ability. The intent for this ability is to summon a Monster from the wilds or woods and not from the realms of chaos. Yes all Daemons are considered monsters but not all monsters are Daemons. So the Great Bray is trying to get a giant, cygor, gorgon, jabberslythe, Chimera, etc. to fight for him. A monster from the Beastman army list. Kinda, it's both together. And I'm not seeing wording to suggest that Savage Dominon is intended to be just Beastmen models. It would be very easy to have added keywords to make it a certain type of monster, but they didn't. I know in the old book, Savage Dominion did something different, but that's not the current rules (or fluff). SAVAGE DOMINION The shaman sends his mind winging into the wilds and possesses the largest creature he can find and bend to his will. Savage Dominion has a casting value of 9. If successfully cast, you can summon one Monster and add it to your army. Set up the summoned model within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any enemy models. This counts as its move for the upcoming movement phase. And then the Summon Lord of Change: SUMMON LORD OF CHANGE Summon Lord of Change has a casting value of 9. If successfully cast, you can set up a Lord of Change within 18" of the caster and more than 9" from any enemy models. The unit is added to your army but cannot move in the following movement phase. And Kairos' Key words: CHAOS, DAEMON, TZEENTCH, MONSTER, HERO, WIZARD, LORD OF CHANGE, KAIROS FATEWEAVER Note the comma between the "Lord of change" keyword and the "kairos fateweaver" keyword. With the above, I'm really not seeing an actual rule that prevents the Great Bray Shaman from summoning a Lord of Change, or a rule that prevents either summon lord of change or savage dominion from summoning kairos. Anyway, I'm fine with a houserule that prevents these things, I was just trying to get a clear answer if the rules actually address it as written. Looks like the spell works, but the idea causes local uproar. A good reason for a house rule . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yeah I think in this case its best to just stick with the Bray Shaman only being able to take Monsters from the chaos faction that are non Hero`s,as in something "wild from the wilderness" As you get more into checking all the other armies scrolls you will see that GW really is looking for the game groups to add to their base rules with their own agreed changes.It may not sound good at first impression but really,pretty much all wargame systems out there have a host of house rules set up by each player group with some of the rules being adopted globally as a whole, mainly in the competitive circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrad Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Anyway, I'm fine with a houserule that prevents these things, I was just trying to get a clear answer if the rules actually address it as written. Looks like the spell works, but the idea causes local uproar. A good reason for a house rule . No uproar here! You read the text the way you want to and interpret it the way you want and I will do the same. Again I keep saying, AOS is an open, great game! Do with it what you will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Yeah I think in this case its best to just stick with the Bray Shaman only being able to take Monsters from the chaos faction that are non Hero`s,as in something "wild from the wilderness" As you get more into checking all the other armies scrolls you will see that GW really is looking for the game groups to add to their base rules with their own agreed changes.It may not sound good at first impression but really,pretty much all wargame systems out there have a host of house rules set up by each player group with some of the rules being adopted globally as a whole, mainly in the competitive circles. So a notable feature of the beastmen battletome is that it includes the Giant, which is not a chaos model. It's Destruction. No giants with Savage Dominion? I don't really care either way, but I function much better with a concrete understanding of the rules, even if only the local interpretation. I'd hate to buy/convert a model, paint it up, then show up to a local game, only to have my model dismissed as not being allowed. And on a side note, there is a chaos giant, but that's the Chaos Siege Giant, which is on the FW site (which is included in the FW warscrolls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Giant is fine as long as its a non hero monster,and I think the WoC Giant is built from the same kit as the OnG one is.Should show in the in WoC warscrolls as the Chaos Giant.You could also take the Siege Giant as long as it doesn't also include the Hero keyword. For that matter there should be no problem grabbing any "Monster" keyword scroll from any faction,just so long as it doesn't also have a Hero keyword attatched to it:) Of course if my look a bit odd to have a Star Dragon being grabbed in to help,I guess that particular Shaman was exceptionally forcefull with his summons.lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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