Knight Porphyrion

[Guest]

You do realize pax that every single super heavy 40k has that is imperial is included in 30k in some form or another. The 25% works just fine. You wanna take a Minotaur tank go mechanicum and have that nice super heavy as a heavy support you wanna use your gorgon transport go milita and bam dedicated transport point being excluding Xenos the super heavies everyone wants to use in 40k are readily available in 30k and sometimes if you wanna be a cheeky bastard you can get an army of the name blade types if you wanted through a special foc so

It's still unbalanced, just not broken. "If it ain't broke don't fix it," logic is fine for 30k, but when talking about implementing their system into 40k, yeah, I object. 

 

I think the Doomhammer, Gorgon, and the Crassus Armored Assault Transports are not good enough to qualify as a LoW. Saying that including 25% of my army as these, restricts my army from actually fielding real LoW options is an unbalanced restriction. That's like saying land raiders (Las/heavy bolter version) should be considered LoWs. Sure, these are durable transports, but it isn't the same level of offensive power that the cap on LoWs is trying to restrict. 

[Guest]

That sounds like the mentality of a quitter!  You live in the PacNW?  There are CSL Plasma Centers all over the place.  Donate plasma in exchange for monetary compensation, you'll be helping people out, and you'll get money to spend on dru....resin.

 

Here in Rogue they pay something like 70/week, for like 3 hours of your time.  That's less than two months of helping save lives and you can have your stormbird.

Be careful though, blood places take zero responsibility if they screw up and give you a bloodborne diesease. Not common, but it does happen.

[AbusePuppy]

Those 30k 10-man special weapon teams really make me scoff at any arguements that 40k is more potent than 30k. 10 melta guns in one SM squad arriving via drop pod should be enough to decimate most super heavy options. In 40k, your lucky if you can even field a unit with 4 special weapons...not including combi-weapons.

 

While I actually agree with you in the general sense, since I think 30K has a lot of really strong stuff people aren't very aware of, the special weapon squads aren't one of them in my opinion. Zero ablative bodies means they take casualties very badly and (more importantly) they can't just buy a Drop Pod, you have to have your whole army dropping in if you want to use any at all.

[Guest]

While I actually agree with you in the general sense, since I think 30K has a lot of really strong stuff people aren't very aware of, the special weapon squads aren't one of them in my opinion. Zero ablative bodies means they take casualties very badly and (more importantly) they can't just buy a Drop Pod, you have to have your whole army dropping in if you want to use any at all.

I agree, ups and downs to such a squad. No ablative bodies means each model dead is a drop in firepower, but at the same time, no ablative bodies means you don't start the game with reduced firepower.

 

30k does have a pretty broad set of transport and alternate deployment options, so while not all SM are using pods, they do have options to get into range. And with that much offensive firepower, such a unit is hardly underpowered even if they die quickly when actually shot.

 

Though in terms of model costs, they are pretty darn cheap space marines. 

 

My DA combat veterans in a ten-man with just combi weapons are looking at 280pts without a transport. I don't have the HH book in front of me, but I recall such a unit being closer to 200pts. Granted, their's aren't veterans, but that's the closest my DA can get to a similar level of special weapon firepower. I can't really get a cheaper 10-man squad with 10 special weapons. Most units cap out at a meager 2 special weapons, and that's with 8 tax "ablative" models. 

[WestRider]

Though in terms of model costs, they are pretty darn cheap space marines. 

 

My DA combat veterans in a ten-man with just combi weapons are looking at 280pts without a transport. I don't have the HH book in front of me, but I recall such a unit being closer to 200pts. Granted, their's aren't veterans, but that's the closest my DA can get to a similar level of special weapon firepower. I can't really get a cheaper 10-man squad with 10 special weapons. Most units cap out at a meager 2 special weapons, and that's with 8 tax "ablative" models. 

325 before a transport for a 10-man Support Squad with Meltaguns. Not Vets, just Tac Marine equivalents. And unlike the 40K version, it gets less efficient as you go for more Units, costing 350 if you want 2 5-man Squads instead of a single 10-man.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, the two big downsides to 30K guys as compared to normal are lack of ATSKNF and bad squad scaling on the low end of things. I think those are both excellent design choices on FW's part in order to encourage a particular type of play in 30K (though I would take issue with the base price of a lot of their units- stuff like Assault Marines in particular), but they don't do it any favors from a competitive standpoint.

 

Realistically, 10 specials is complete overkill even against a superheavy target- four Meltaguns is a pretty reliable way to drop a Knight once you're bypassing the Shield (and it's not that hard to bypass the Shield if you are playing smart), ten is just wasteful in most cases. If we're looking to the strengths of HH units, it's their ridulous relic items, their too-good-for-40K superheavy units, and a handful of other nasty tricks you can play. Like most FW stuff, 80% of the units in the books are just useless chaff that there is no reason to take, it's that top 5% that makes the army excellent.

[WestRider]

Yeah, the two big downsides to 30K guys as compared to normal are lack of ATSKNF and bad squad scaling on the low end of things. I think those are both excellent design choices on FW's part in order to encourage a particular type of play in 30K (though I would take issue with the base price of a lot of their units- stuff like Assault Marines in particular), but they don't do it any favors from a competitive standpoint.

 

Realistically, 10 specials is complete overkill even against a superheavy target- four Meltaguns is a pretty reliable way to drop a Knight once you're bypassing the Shield (and it's not that hard to bypass the Shield if you are playing smart), ten is just wasteful in most cases. If we're looking to the strengths of HH units, it's their ridulous relic items, their too-good-for-40K superheavy units, and a handful of other nasty tricks you can play. Like most FW stuff, 80% of the units in the books are just useless chaff that there is no reason to take, it's that top 5% that makes the army excellent.

Yeah, Assault Marine pricing in 30K confuses me. Breachers and Seekers kind of do, too.

 

My understanding is that the main reason people take big Support Squads when they do is to dish out massed AP2 with Plasma for clearing out Terminator DeathStars, since most of those just have Cataphractii Armour instead of Storm Shields, so it's a substantially more viable approach in 30K. I'm just getting into it, but that's pretty much the only time I've seen them mentioned.

 

And for the stuff with Armoured Ceramite, that half-a-dozen Meltas won't handle, there are completely different options that are way better than just dumping more Melta into it.

[Guest]

325 before a transport for a 10-man Support Squad with Meltaguns. Not Vets, just Tac Marine equivalents. And unlike the 40K version, it gets less efficient as you go for more Units, costing 350 if you want 2 5-man Squads instead of a single 10-man.

325pts is high. <gets out the HH 1st book...>

 

100pts base for 4 legion space marines and one legion sergeant. space marines have flamers, and sergeant has BP+CCW. +15pts each for another 5 marines (175pts). Then the space marines can swap their flamers for melta guns, at +15pts each (Should be 310pts). My version could be wrong, but doesn't seem like the sergeant can take a melta gun, though he could take a combi-melta for +10pts.

 

As for two 5-man squads, should be 160pts each, so 320pts for two squads (8 total melta guns). So as written, two squads is technically 10pts cheaper than 1 squad of the same number, but that's only because you have one less melta gun.

 

Still, the main thing I'm seeing is that these guys are troops, not elites like my company vets. They don't compete for slots with my elites.

[Tamwulf]

Lot's of interesting and preconceived notions of how 30K plays.

 

30K is designed around 3,000 points. The Rose City Heresy Group plays around 2,500-3,000 points. There are no "Terminator Death Stars" because there are a lot of 5" and 7" D-pie plates thrown around. Just about everything that can take Armored Ceramite, does, just to prevent that Legion Tactical Support Squad with 10 Melta's from killing it. Also, Terminators can't deepstrike, unless you have certain Rites of War (think warlord traits, but much, much more powerful), or certain special Terminator Squads. There are not a lot of Storm Shields because most Terminators are in Cataphract Terminator Armor with 2+/4++, and the some of the special squads have 2 wounds, making those Terminator squads viable. What I have seen is a unit of Cataphracti Terminators with Plasma Blasters. If you can't deal with that... 

 

Individual squads can, and do purchase Drop Pods as dedicated troop transports. There is also a Fast Attack Drop Pod called the Anvilius Drop Pod that can carry 10 models or one Dreadnought, and it has a nifty heat blast rule, plus it's a flyer with hover. There is also the Heavy Support Kharybdis Assault Claw, which is borderline OP. It's basically an Anvilius dialed up to a 10. You don't see a lot of Drop Pod armies in 30K because there are far too many units with Sky Fire and/or Intercept. One of the cheapest, and one that's just about in every army, is a Mortus Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought with two Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons- S6 Rending, 12 shots, twin linked, BS5. For 180 points.

 

For a Lord of War choice in 30K, this is probably one of the weakest choices you could take. The standard Force Organization choices in 30K limit you to one Lord of War choice, and it can only cost up to 25% of your army points. You could do a Leviathans of War, and get multiple Lords of War, but the drawbacks...! Especially if your opponent doesn't field a Lord of War are significant.

 

Anyways, 30K is NOT 40K with Forge World models. It has it's own dynamic and flow, and this guy... is pretty meh.

[WestRider]

325pts is high. <gets out the HH 1st book...>

 

100pts base for 4 legion space marines and one legion sergeant. space marines have flamers, and sergeant has BP+CCW. +15pts each for another 5 marines (175pts). Then the space marines can swap their flamers for melta guns, at +15pts each (Should be 310pts). My version could be wrong, but doesn't seem like the sergeant can take a melta gun, though he could take a combi-melta for +10pts.

 

As for two 5-man squads, should be 160pts each, so 320pts for two squads (8 total melta guns). So as written, two squads is technically 10pts cheaper than 1 squad of the same number, but that's only because you have one less melta gun.

 

Still, the main thing I'm seeing is that these guys are troops, not elites like my company vets. They don't compete for slots with my elites.

I'm working from the Crusade Army List book, which has updates in a number of places. You've got an outdated set of Rules there.

[derek]

40k is awesome 30k is awesome the knight is awesome. I'm gonna get that knight :)

[pretre]

Scale shot

 

[Guest]

Scale shot

 

So it really is the missing link between knights and titans....