WestRider Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'm working on putting together a Talon Strike Force, using a Pinion Demi-Company and a Shadowstrike Kill Team. So far I have 3 Squads of Scouts, one with Bolters, one with BP/CCW, and one with Sniper Rifles. That covers the bare minimum required. I kind of feel like I want a fourth Squad in there, and have parts to build 5 more dudes, with either Bolters or BP/CCW, but can't decide on which, and on whether they should be part of the Demi-Company (can lead other Demi-Company elements in Outflanking, and spot targets to grant Ignores Cover) or the Kill Team (where they help bring the Vanguard Vets in accurately). Anyone with some experience with these sorts of things got advice? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Realistically speaking? They should probably all be Bolters or BP/CCW. (I prefer Bolters, but I know folks who have run them with BP/CCW and had success.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 I never seem to do anything with my BP/CCW scouts. That's why I just switched to bolters on a lot of mine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 I like the Power fist wielding melee scouts. I have a huge number of scouts (odd, since I never play the Space Marines really) and loved showing storms into peoples faces and then swarming all over their dudes. In the few games i played using the newest codex, i played a scout based army and I thought it was really fun to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 I'm working on putting together a Talon Strike Force, using a Pinion Demi-Company and a Shadowstrike Kill Team. So far I have 3 Squads of Scouts, one with Bolters, one with BP/CCW, and one with Sniper Rifles. That covers the bare minimum required. I kind of feel like I want a fourth Squad in there, and have parts to build 5 more dudes, with either Bolters or BP/CCW, but can't decide on which, and on whether they should be part of the Demi-Company (can lead other Demi-Company elements in Outflanking, and spot targets to grant Ignores Cover) or the Kill Team (where they help bring the Vanguard Vets in accurately). Anyone with some experience with these sorts of things got advice? Haven't weighed in because I don't really understand the formation rules. I have done extensive testing with scout marine loadouts. For melee scouts, I have two builds that are basically the same. First build is 10 scouts, 5 shotguns, 4 CCW+BP, and sergeant with Power Sword and BP. Second is 10 scouts, 4 shotguns, 5 CCW+BP, sergeant with Fist and Shotgun. When I split the squad via combat tactics, I mix the shoguns and CCW+BP models, so 3 of one, and 2 of the other. Shotguns go in front, BP+CCW behind, so when I get shot up, shotguns die first since they have less attacks in melee and they have more attacks at range, so being closest is advantageous there. The power sword is good on scout marines, just because they get underestimated by marine players, very often, and they issue challenges against those power fist/axe wielding marines, killing them before they get to swing. The power fist is more iffy, since not all targets will allow scouts to swing, but it does have it's moments. For the best results of melee scouts, I include a Scout Dreadnought (That's the Ironclad, called this because it has move through cover). So the Dread braves difficult terrain with the scouts. 10 scouts per dread. No infiltrating, they just deploy in the area of the table with the most cover, and advance through it. The presence of the dread really alters the viability of scouts used like this, and use the scouts to buffer the dread against melee opponents that are best suited for anti-tank only (like orks with power claws). 5-man teams of scouts usually leave enough room for the dread to join combat, if it wants to, though 10-man squads can run into issues against smaller targets (as in, smaller numbers in the target unit). The other tactic of note, is that 10 scouts in a Land Raider (or similar assault vehicle) and with an attached Chaplain, are actually amazing in assault. For this approach, if my Chappy has a power weapon (including Crozius Arcanum), then the Fist scouts join this unit, so I can have a hidden power fist. If they Chappy has a fist, or another unwieldy weapon, then the sword scouts join this unit. As for damage output, the scouts are not amazing in the respect that they will outpreform other assault units, but they can equal other, more expensive assault units, under the right circumstances. For example, if the opponent denies your armor save anyway, then the scout and the assault marine are basically the same thing in melee. In addition, since scouts are usually objective secured, the Land Raider (or other assault vehicle) becomes a pretty high priorty for the opponent, so they don't really need to seek out the opponent, just sit on an objective and wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Bolters it is. I was kind of leaning that way anyhow, just on a modeling basis, but was sort of thinking that BP/CCW might perhaps be better for the ones up guiding in the VV. And yeah, I know the Snipers aren't very good these days, but they're fluffy and they were fun to build, and since I will have four Squads, I can leave them out once I get the second Squad of Bolters together if they really disappoint me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just curious, why are snipers any worse than they used to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 STR 4 vs. Vehicles is WEAK and one shot means bad dice go a long way. It's just not enough ROF, and the unit is usually out of the fight OTHER THAN those few dice rolls in a round. things like HexRifles are much better at it (and obviously more expensive) but the ones you see on most things are disappointing. One exception i suppose is the Sniper Drone Squads. they have GREAT range, are Rapid Fire and can be augmented in their ROF further. As for Imperial Forces...meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 STR 4 vs. Vehicles is WEAK. But that's the same strength as the bolt pistol, astartes shotgun, and bolter. So, if the goal is just to shoot vehicles with iffy weapons, not sure why the snipers are any worse than the other options. Krak grenades are the best Scout marine AT option, anyway. Melta bombs, combi-melta, plasma pistol, and missile launchers are nice upgrade too, if the goal is anti-tank, but most squads are just going to be using krak grenades against tanks. For melee scouts, I mentioned the mix of pistols and shotguns because being able to charge after iffy shooting is the important bit, since the unit is much more able to destroy vehicles in assault than they are at range with any unit loadout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 But that's the same strength as the bolt pistol, astartes shotgun, and bolter. So, if the goal is just to shoot vehicles with iffy weapons, not sure why the snipers are any worse than the other options. Krak grenades are the best Scout marine AT option, anyway. Melta bombs, combi-melta, plasma pistol, and missile launchers are nice upgrade too, if the goal is anti-tank, but most squads are just going to be using krak grenades against tanks. For melee scouts, I mentioned the mix of pistols and shotguns because being able to charge after iffy shooting is the important bit, since the unit is much more able to destroy vehicles in assault than they are at range with any unit loadout. Then...take them? I mean unless they are up against Monstrous Creatures that don't fly, I mean... it is what it is, for me. I think the only scouts with Sniper Rifles i took in my limited games, were the ones my collection sort of forced me to take. Lol. I have no problem with people taking them. I just was explaining why they might not be too popular. If there's enough Monstrous Creatures in the area that aren't also Gargants, then sure. When Chancey played a lot of Tyranids, a Sniper Rifle wasn't so terrible but when I go to events, the FMC's I see in numbers are flying most of the time. Like all things, the opponent makes the actual determination on their value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Snipers are more expensive and less mobile than the other Scout builds. They have better range, but don't really do substantially more damage against most targets. The basic idea for them in this List is for them to sit back on an Objective and have the Sgt provide Ignores Cover for a Lascannon Dev Squad, and just sort of take pot shots at targets of opportunity. Like I said earlier, more of a fluff/modeling option, really. Bolters could do most of the job just as well, but more cheaply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Snipers are more expensive and less mobile than the other Scout builds. They have better range, but don't really do substantially more damage against most targets. The basic idea for them in this List is for them to sit back on an Objective and have the Sgt provide Ignores Cover for a Lascannon Dev Squad, and just sort of take pot shots at targets of opportunity. Like I said earlier, more of a fluff/modeling option, really. Bolters could do most of the job just as well, but more cheaply. Hmm...must be a formation thing. Don't recall scouts being able to provide cover denial to other units. Sounds neat. As for costs, the sniper rifles are 1pt each. I don't usually upgrade the whole squad with them, but at 1pt each, the cost for a 5-man is comparable to a melta bomb on a single model. Not really a cost to gripe about. Marine codex doesn't really have very many 1pt upgrade options, so it's not a terrible option and they still retain their pistols. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Yeah, it's one of the bonuses from the Pinion Demi-Company. And the loss of mobility is really the more serious downside, but the cost, while minor, is still non-trivial, so I listed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just curious, why are snipers any worse than they used to be? Because you have to pay points for them, basically. It's not actually a bad gun, but you're not taking Scouts because you want the firepower- you're doing it to get bodies on the field for cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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