MexicanNinja

Ok, I know this a bit redundent; however, I'm trying to get a product I want to start purchasing.  Here is the 3rd update:

Thane w/bsb, shield, master rune of grungi

Runesmith w/shield, rune of stone, sune of spellbreaking

10 Quarrellers w/standard, great weapons

25 Longbeards w/musician, standard, shields

25 Longbeards w/musician, standard, shields

30 Hammerers w/musician, standard, master rune of valaya

20 Miners w/standard

Cannon

Cannon

Grude Thrower w/rune of accuracy

Flame Cannon

10 Irondrakes w/standard, rune of slowness

Ok, this lists does a lot of shooting, can still shut down magic, and can still smash face in close combat.  How does this all tie together?

The quarrellers are the bunker for my runesmith (he's the general).  They also get armour piercing for their crossbows.  I have 2 cannons to worry about high toughness monsters and to help with monstrous infantry or monstrous cavalry.  The grudge thrower is there to help reduce the numbers of large combat blocks.  The flame cannon, well, that's pretty self-explanitory.  It can either start the end for anything with regen or just pump out a bunch of S5 AP shots on a unti.  The irondrakes are a choice I had to really battle plan in my head.

Since I can use my quarrellers to protect my war machines in a corner, as well as the miners if someone dedicates a larger than normal unit to them, I can then deploy the irondrakes at the furthest they can deploy.  I put them in a single rank, and let them start shooting at stuff.  I could use them to start putting wounds onto regen stuff, which now opens up killy killy for my war machine.  I could hopefully force some long charges for my opponent, stand and shoot, take away D6" from their movement, shoot at them again, and then flee to safety behind my combat blocks.  I like the dirty tricks they can pull off.

I think this is finally the final version, and I can start forking over the hard earned cabbage as they say, which means I can now start the purchasing process.

Sounds like you have the magic situation under control then.  I see the banner used in this way.  Enemy casts a remains in play spell that will have little effect on the initial casting and they roll high enough that I don't have enough dispel dice to stop it.  On my turn I can attempt to end it on a 3+ and if that fails I get to attempt a roll at the base casting value.  I'm using it for utility really.  I really like have +4 to dispel attempts rather than +4.  It means I can throw less dice at my dispel attempts.  There is nothing worse that sitting with 4-6 dice while they have 9+ casting dice.

I can spam 3 spells with an average casting value of 15, with 7-9 power dice, when using my supreme sorceress casting dark magic.  If I get that low roll for winds of magic of say 7 or less and I don't roll high on the dice to determine the dispel dice, it's hard to shut down that magic with only a +2 to dispel.  Your opponent most likely is already on top by +2.  Without a rune or scroll, you may shut down 1 spell if you toss all your dice.

If what you are using is working, stick to it.  I'm just basing these choices around what I consitantly see on the table and the armies I currently fight.

Points adjusted for shields on the longbeards

I am a HUGE fan of Valaya.  I think it is very neccessary with all the level 2-4 wizard running around.  Getting a +4 to dispel is huge, IMO.  Also, the banner pretty much gives you 2 chances to dispel remains in play spells.  Once on a 3+ from the rune special rule, then you can use your dice if needed.  Rolling a 3+ is much much better than needed a 12+.

Trust me, I love those two runes on a banner; however, the valaya is just to clutch.  It does depend on the meta in your location though.  I play lots of games against strong magic phases and in a tournament setting this banner will always pay for itself.

Ok, I've been playing with points and reading the book again and again.  Here is a list I would love to try out sometime:

Lord w/shield, shield bearers, rune of parrying, 2 runes of fortitude, rune of iron

Thane w/bsb, shield, master rune of grungni

Runesmith w/shield, rune of spellbreaking

Runesmith w/shield, 2 runes of spellbreaking

25 Longbeards w/musician, standard bearer, shields

25 Longbeards w/musician, standard bearer, shields

30 Hammerers w/musician, standard bearer, master rune of valaya

20 Miners

Cannon

Flame Cannon

15 Rangers

Why the drastic changes?

1) I get +4 to dispel attempts, and I get to automatically try and stop remains in plays spells on a 3+ without burning any dispel dice

2) I get a 4+ ward on my thane and a 5+ ward to a unit or two from shooting and magic

3) I have a solid combat block with the hammeres, while the longbeards can countercharge or hold a unit where needed

4) I get a scout unit with great weapons and S4 crossbows

5) I also get a solid unit with ambushers holding great weapons.

6) After seeing how the flame cannon works....yeah, love it!

The plan is to obviously have a very strong center and I can place the war machines safely behind my lines.  I will get a scouts move with a solid unit who can flank charge or just pick off chaff.  Then my opponent still needs to think about the miners.  A rear charge with that unit could be devestating.  I like this list because it's not the gunline I originally had.  I think this will be more fun to play.

A doombolt on a 1+ armour save unit isn't really worth it.  Yes, I run a sorceress on a Dark Pegasus.  However, I do play the measurement and charge arc game.  All you have to do is move your Pegasus out of charge arc or out of charge range.  The only other armies I see with solo wizards are beastmen, but they are usuall tucked behind some blocks.

Oh, another good use for Captisus is for redirecting charges.  With  1+ AS, you can hold certin units in place (not big blocks) and can flee and set up counter charges with your other units.

Seems like to.play that you'd need to bring at least 3 vanguarding blocks. Just for flank protection I'd think. Interesting strategy though. Not my personal style but I can see merit in it.

I'm more of a dudespam + warmachines+copters type of guy.

Who cares if you get flanked, you're stubborn 10.

You can vanguard longbeards as well.

Wow that got overly personal quick...

 

@Mexicanninja I completely agree that is a disgustingly survivable build, but it costs a fortune. I've always had better results with more guys. I'm not much for putting too much on survival either. I've had terrible results on survival as a points denial strategy. I end up holding on to the points there but lose points elsewhere when my stuff gets avoided. Maybe its me.

Fair enough, my strat is based around a vanguard move with 25-40 hammerers (still playing with points).  Your enemy can't hide from that vanguard move to his grill before the game starts.  If you add the rune of slowness now it's a gamble for them to charge as well.-

Good point. But you can't erase chiseled stone, so the grudge stands as recorded. Honor demands recompense!

But you can break it with a War Hydra!

Again, it's in the main rule book page 136.  This isn't a new reference to anything.  Also, page 35 states that Dwarfs don't get the bonus if fighting along side a wizard.  So, this is nothing new.  It's just not a common thing, like I stated, to see 2v2 games.

Wow that got overly personal quick...

I wasn't trying to make it personal.  My apologizes if I did.

Munkie, don't worry.  I'm not using them in my 2.5k list either.  I'll take 2 organ guns over them.

Seriously the correct answer is a dwarf with GW, and maybe RoStone on a shield

Much like magic toys, you quickly spend far too much making a character that won't do as much as the equivalent points in dudes.

I seriously have to disagree on this one.  I could get a T7, W6, -1 to hit, 1+/5+ lord to shut down a lot of the blender lord builds.  I would like to see how often he drop in 1 or 2 rounds of combat.  Also, in a non comped event, I could stick bugman in the second rank and heal his ass D3 wounds each turn.  This build isn't about killing.  It's about points denial.  You can deny his points and ensure most things he gets into combat with don't earn their points back either.  This is a tough build to crack, IMO.

Most ethereals will lost just to combat res to most dwarf units.

It was the same with the old book as well.  It was if you did team battles.  There are rules for allies in the main rulebook.  They're aren't many team battles played though.  2v2 in WFB is extremely diffferent than with 40k.  I do know that borderlands does double tournies every once in awhile though.  Pretty much someone brings the magic list and the other just brings the smash mouth list.

Irondrakes are cool but in my extensive experience (2 battles), they tend to just chase enemies out of their threat range, rather than do much actual damage. I won't complain with flanking elements deciding not to because they didn't want to get close. They seem especially good if you can vanguard a decent size block.

 

I totally agree with your view of the runic combos. I've always just run dwarf lords with great weapons and decked them out for survivability. Most blender characters don't want to be taking 4 str 6 hits turn after turn. They tend to lose eventually. But I haven't seen any offense-based dwarf lords that I really like with the new book. The only way to get more than str 4 is by using 2 runes to get +1 str and AP (redundant with runesmiths), or take Rune of Might and double your str against T5+ models. But against T4 models, he doesn't do anything. I don't like it. I think a 6 point great weapon will do more damage consistently than many runic combos, and is certainly the best value.

 

I don't really care about the Anvil nerf. I knew it was going to be nerfed, I just didn't expect them to go that overboard. Oh well, I never really used it much anyway.

Take a unit of 14 Irondrakes and stick them in 2 ranks somewhere with the rune of slowness.  They can just move and shoot.

Actually, a parry rune on that lord is amazing.  Most things hit on 5's and wound on 6's.  Stick him in some hammerers and they dish out damage while he shuts down the blenders.

The bad part of the anvil is that there is no bonus to cast the spells.  Most armies will have a +4 to dispel and your opponent should know which 1 of the 3 spells to shut down.  If you don't IF the spell you need it's more than likely getting shut down.  They should have made that thing a rare choice.

If someone has a WFB they are thinking about getting rid of or wanting to trade, I may be interested in a straight up trade.  I will consider trades for the following armies:

Non-nurgle daemons of chaos

Non-nurgle warriors of chaos

Dwarfs

Chaos Dwafrs

Ogre Kingdoms

So, I'm in the process of re-working my list.  I've done some more examination of the book and have a better understanding on how the lord should work.  I also have found some nice combos here and there.

In the end, I think I am going to just make my lord a hold the grounds type guy.  Not really needed for damage output but rather to hold the "blender" lords in place for frustration with for my opponent.

Iron drakes....I need to find a spot for these guys.  The more I read about them the more I want a unit of the guys.  However, these will have to wait for a specific theme resolved around the engineer special character.  So, this will be an "addition to" type army.

The 1 combo I have fallen MADLY in love with is Bugman in the second rank of a unit with your T7 W6 lord.  Why, you may ask?  He is the only model in the game with the ability to give multiple wounds back to a singel character!  He's purely here to be a medic.  It's already going to be hard as nails to take down a lord kitted for survivability.  Now, add in the ability to give wounds back to your general every turn and you can stick out that grind with blender lords much easier now.

I will also say, I think I may go less war machines and more vanguard runes.  Imagine setting up dwarfs at the max deployment allowed and then follow that up with a 12" move.  You're set up for turn 2 charges and with the correct banner combos you can really go to town with some things.  Heck you could trick out 3 cheap thanes to have breath weapon attacks for countering regen units or small bunkers for characters.

This is hands down my second favorite 8th ed book.  Some of the options in this book also point to potential changes to 9th.  Which rules may that be you say?  Look at the hammerers and what special rule they have and then look at the option for them to take a shield.  Hopefully, you'll get to chose which weapon you want to use in close combat in 9th like you were able to in 7th.  Now you have 2 attack Stubborn units with the ability to have great weapons for damage output or surviability with an armour save and a parry save.

Wow, just wow, this book offers some great things.  There are some drawbacks; although, these mainly come with the huge nerf the anvil took.  There are a few things I don't see happening.  I don't see alot of the triple runes being used (most of the third tier abilities just aren't worth the points spent to get them) and slayer characters.  If you had a way to get slayers in as a core choice, with say the special-character slayer, that would be pretty cool.  However, I just don't see slayers taken over the other options.

Well some charaters are great on mounts though with the right ward save. Capalus is a great example for Empire. A hero Captain on a pegasus with a ward save and magical weapon. Good for hunting warmachines, chaff and lone charaters. Along with being able to flank easily and being hard to chatch he is a great buy. I also run a hero and lord on a pegasus in my DE army all the time but they do ave the Cloak of Twilight. So it all depends on what your army offers and what you mount for the points.

Captisus loses most character exchanges if he doesn't do it on the charge.  I'd save him for chaff and war machine hunting.

Heros on monsters are far better than people understand or get for some dumb reason.

I will gladly explain when I get time, but the short answer is Speed+power= concentration of force

I agree that they are great.  However, I will say it takes a certain amount of time to learn how to properly use them in your games.  If you are just learning how to use those awesome monster mounts and you deploy and move "willy-nilly" against an experienced player with shooting or war machines and you will learn the mistakes fast and my be quick to think it's not a solid option.

As a former Empire player (5+ years), I would suggest saving the points you'd spend on the montser mounts for either a Steam Tank or a cannon, helblaster, and engineer.  Your state troops need that LD near them.  However Karl Franz was always the exception for me.  He kills things, and he kills them fast.  The problem is that Deathclaw has no save.  If you want to run a character on a griffon, I would strongly suggest testing out how to manouver him around the table.

List is in!

Here's a spoiler for all of you:

1) I'm using a certain magic lore for the 1st time in 8th ed (i've never needed to use it before).

2) I'm using a certain unit for the 1st time in 8th ed!

Nice, I like that!  I'm drawn to the under neck portion.  You just made me want to touch mine up.

I am not.  I am located in Tualatin.

I'll have my list sent tonight after work.

I most likely will not be able to make.  Our unit comes back from the field on Sunday.