peter.cosgrove

They got one thing. The wings of something or other. 

There is a RUMOR that Death Company MAY get the ability to attack twice like Khorne Zerkers.

IF.. that's the case then DC just got gud. DC with plasma pistols/even just chainswords with Lemartes AND the Red thirst for the +1 str makes them better than khorne zerkers.. mainly because of the 6+ FNP. It would depend on if the KZ's were in a WE detachment for the +1 attack on charge AND if you can absorb the cost for the rhino assault across the board.

Lemartes and 6 squads DC with PP is a legit BA detachment, less good than a BT/VV detachment, but IF they get that second set of attacks.. that would put them WELL into A/A+ territory.

remember they have also brought back the 4E imperial gunline AND the 2E screening forces rule (insofar as HQ choices are screened from fire). This means we are back to the old school/pre drop-pod assault concepts of backfield/midfield.

The non-finicky lists are always going to have something cheap/disposable in front of stuff that are important, and nobody is going to let anyone DS into the backfield if they can possibly avoid it. Gunlines are not going to be setup centered if they can shoot farther than 48", and it only takes 2 of the cheapests units anyone can bring to block first turn assault in the two back corners. And that's just for dawn of war deployment. All the other's are even easier to block first turn assault/melta of key combat platforms.

In order to break the gunline deployment when using a deep strike points dump someone will have to break the cornerstone in first turn and then HOPE their opponent isn't smart enough to move a unit back into gap to stop the 2nd turn DS/Assault. Exactly the way things were in 4th. At least in 4th you could deep strike 2d6 inches instead of a hard 9", although there weren't any first turn assault units that I remember using in 4th. That's why 5th was so pro-BA. BA could deep strike 1d6 inches away AND assault on deep strike.

AND Rhino's don't have fire points anymore. Using a transport for an ablative is limited to stuff like bunkers/bastions or some army list peculiarity. 

AND with every unit capable of falling back, players will end up relying on threat density and HOPE as the only ablative for the deep strike points dump, assuming the DS can get to key weapons platforms that will not be able to shoot next turn.

the guys coming out of drop pods ALSO have to stay 9" away.

Are people going to be at the club playing necromunda today? I would really like to play/learn

In both 6th and 7th they instituted rules that mitigated against the whole 5th edition BA blitz. Having to have at least half your units on the board compared to those in deep strike, and tabling. 8E has both those rules in place.

When you add in the mandated 9" deep strike and the ability for every unit to fall back (except for the one assassin and GC), it means having a chapter/list/detachment dedicated to the shoot/assault deep strike blitz concept becomes extremely difficult and finicky.

BA retains the ability to take 2 special weapons in the assault squads and the heavy flamers. Oh, and little things like giving a techmarine a jump pack (but no CB), sanguinary priests etc (and to be fair, the narthecium has some interesting capability's when carried by an HQ instead of an elite).

It's possible that plasma gun assaults are marginally less finicky than melta gun assaults. However, having plasma pistols across  full units of jump pack equipped squads that can re-roll charge distance is even less finicky. At that point there is a need to compare Death Company squads with Lemartes VS Black Templar Vanguard Vets for points cost (especially since the VV's can take stormshields).

Ah, you didn't get the joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6CDFn2i3I

I ran 6 squads assault troops with 2 melta's each (12 melta's), 3 squads of VV combat squaded (assault on deep strike) with 4 melta's each (12 meltas), 2 command squads with 4 melta's each (8 meltas), and a librarian with a melta. 33 meltas, all with jump packs. Single targets like dreadnaughts would just disappear.

The assault on deep strike meant you could crack open transports with the melta's and then assault the disembarking models.

I want to play.. someone can haz teech mez? Can I take scouts with sniper rifles?

oops.. i forgot a melta..

Melta

Melta

Sounds like someone wasn't using VV's correctly.

because..

Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta,

Mushroom... Mushroom... 

Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta,

heh. Point. However, I am sure that, given the memetic reply, that facetious comment was received appropriately.

Can we go back to talking about the Glory Days of 5th? 

Seriously, if someone is going to try to points dump into a meta-banging midfield drop that someone HAS to have charge distance re-rolls across the board. Not 1 unit, not a specialized unit, but every model/unit in the drop. Welcome to 8th.

I think some one is being over-sensitive. I never directed any comments towards anyone. I never used the pejorative "you" in the thread.

1 hour ago, MikhailLenin said:

Peter.Cosgrove, if you have the Codex would you kindly share it with us that do not. I would like it in a PDF Format for easy reading by my bedside.

No, I don't. What I do have is knowing that I am pretty sure they will copy/paste from the SM codex, and the teaser shows the absolute best coming out in the codex, which means the stuff that isn't in the teaser is going to be less good than the teaser.

I also have about 110 BA models I've been playing since the Wardian days of 5th edition that says GW doesn't want to make the same mistake they made in 5th, that they overcorrected in 6th, outright nerfed in 7th (kinda, who knew the Wardite DA reformation would, heh, jink that way) and have been meta-banging since pre in june trying to make BA work.

As long as your opponent is willing to let you get melta's within 12 inches they are OK? but since the codex droppings have come and they didn't get anything besides Lemartes for charge distance re-rolling they have been left behind. And unless they can fix that in the codex they will stay behind the power curve for the entirety of 8th.

Put it to you this way. If they scrapped the entire codex for one thing. Blood Angels get to re-roll charge distances, they would automatically be better than everything in the entire codex.

The only problem with Black Templars is Vanguard Vet's can't take combi-melta's. But neither can Death Company. You can take 6 Black Templar vets  for cheaper than 6 squads DC with Lemartes for the charge distance re-roll.

I like the red thirst triggering when charged however the current meta is shoot first, charge only when absolutely necessary and screen everything deep strike melta-able with cheap troops.

And, conceivably, you can get S6 in combat if you pay for a priest to hang with them. But now you are paying for both Lemartes and a Priest w/ JP. That's a hefty price to pay for S6. Base cost is something like 850 points.

Black Templar Assaults can take 3 plasma pistols and get a charge re-roll for the same price as BA assaults who can't. The only real demarcation is BA assaults can take 2 melta's at BS3+, Space Wolf Assaults can take 2 melta's at BS4+. And we haven't seen yet what Space Wolfs are going to get. And Space wolfs have the best dreadnaught HQ in the game, bar none, beats the Librarian Dreadnaught easily. 2x Lascannon hitting on 2+ with re-roll 1's, 5+ FNP, heavy flamer and 5 attacks at S12 AP-4 for D6 wounds, hitting on 2+ with re-roll 1's and rerolling wounds. Oh, and the extra command point just for having good ole Bjorn

BT crusaders can take both a heavy weapon and special weapon in troop squads of 5 with charge re-rolls, BA can't.

I would rather make a charge for first hits at S4 than miss a charge, get shot (a LOT) then get charged, get hits from the charge and THEN get S5 hits.

1 hour ago, CaptainA said:

You don't nearly have enough of the picture and stratagems to make such an assertion.

heh. Want to bet on that?

5 hours ago, pretre said:

In short, this is the most complete Blood Angels codex ever, replete with powerful options that support a huge variety of builds, both for matched play and beyond.

Complete? Wrong. sorry but No Descent of Angels? No deep strikeable Land Raider? No ability to give every unit Black Rage? No ability to deep strike close enough that you can shoot inferno pistols? No ability to take Assault squads as troop choices? No inherent re-rolling of charge distance? No ability to deep strike dreadnaughts?

So Black Templars retain the honors of having the the best jump pack equipped chapter in the game? Instead of Blood Angels?

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Because I spent 499pts of the starting 500pts, do I carry over the unspent 1pt, or is it gone?

Once you play the unused points are gone.

Now, if I wanted to swap weapons on a guy, for example, giving a Cultist a Heavy Stubber instead of an Autogun, Can I? Or if I wanted to replace one of the Hellbrute weapons with something else because those weapons are overkill at 500pts, can I?

If you buy a weapon for a model, you retain the previous weapon. So you CAN swap between weapons before each game, and you can transfer weapons between eligible models, but ALL weapons on the roster have to be on the model/board, even if they are not equipped and if the model carrying the un-equipped weapon is attrited then you lose both weapons. Just like in Shadowwars.

Next, if I want to add a Chaos Daemon or Building to my army, can I? 

As long as the roster retains the single faction keyword  within the roster then it's fine. no mixing Imperial guard with necrons, or orks with eldar etc.

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

My understanding is that we are allowed to upgrade units. For example, if I have a marine with a bolter and a bolt pistol, I can upgrade it to have a missile launcher at a later date. That said, why would the reverse not be true? If I have a model with a missile launcher, why am I unable to give him a bolter instead?

You can upgrade, but you can't throw away a weapon/model once you have upgraded it.  The only mechanic to remove a model is the attrition.

Regarding faction changes, recall that in this edition I have lots of factions. It's just as accurate to call my faction Khorne, as it is to call them World Eaters, Chaos, or Hereticus Astartes. And, in this edition, If I add a unit to my roster, say I add a Chaos Daemon, my detachment defaults to common faction keyword, which would be a chaos or khorne. And with us not using detachments, this again becomes murky. And for clarity, my army is Smiling Skulls Space Marines, not World eaters or whatever, I'm just using those rules to represent them. 

Once you declare a legion/chapter etc. on your roster it's fixed.

Also, been wondering, are we allowed to field understength units, due to attrition.

Yes. You have to buy them full strength, but if they attrit you can have them be understrength. In addition, if you attrit models from a unit you are not required to buy back models to full strength if you only want to buy some models to raise the model count of the unit.

Ok so. Here is the next bit to think about. I would like everyone's input.

in Shadowwars each player rolled on a table before each game for random effects during the game. 2 players, 2 separate, sometimes incremental effects.

So what kind of things would be ok to roll randomly for to make the game more finicky. Things like, Night Fighting, Slippery Terrain etc.

Note to self:

Ignore this bit.

Instead of 100 points make it 75 points.

Keep the Attrition on a 1.

A player can concede by surrendering a cache. The winner then gains 1+D3 caches, the player conceding either loses a cache already in inventory or doesn't receive the end-game cache.

ah. It looks like I already made notes.

obtw chad, don't count the 2nd or third round, you need to play someone else besides me. it's round robin so your next "official" matchup is with carl/chris.

same thing with Carl/Chris. 

Can everyone show up on next Tue?

i/e is anyone NOT available to play on TUE.

Once somethings on your roster it's there until the model dies. You have to buy the units legally but you can allow the unit to attrit normally if you roll 1's, i/e you can have a short squad that you don't pay to reinforce. You also can't change the factions either, that would mean changing the roster.

Once a unit or model gets dropped into the atmosphere of The Triple Canopy Jungle Planet of DOOOOOOM, it's stuck. To leave you have to collect what your master's want, which is enough caches for them to deign to recover your worthless carcasses.

Note to self.

ignore the following.

75 points instead of 100. 

Keep the attrition at a 1 on a d6.

placement of deployment obj’s 12” and 6” from both table edge and models

The strategems should be able to be used according to the building, fortification, transport rules on the unit datasheet.

A fortification that allows a unit to shoot during the shooting phase would allow that unit to use a shooting phase strategem, for example.The unit still can't be effected by other things like aura's though.