Raak Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 *I discovered something recently. I like 40k. I like it a lot </end Forrest Gump accent/> I played an easy to medium-tough Daemon Calvary with my Eldar. That's right just plain old Eldar ... Ok I did use the Iyanden Supplement to make my Wraithknight my warlord (who the frick knew?) but Vanilla Eldar is the key here, folks. No allies, No Battle Brothers, No data slates. And it rocked! Then again Eldar are essentially jacked up tommy gun wielding Space Elves that can sprint like Olympians so wtf wouldn't they be fun to play in 6th; but I digress. I'll save you the long version of my epiphany, but the short version is that I'm just too new to the game to know any better (editions, times, rules, games). I'm Tabula Rasa as far as Tabletop is concerned and there will probably be many like me that enter Nathaniels store and start looking for armies to build. I guess what I'm saying is - there is the potential for a continuous customer base is there. The game isn't going to die because GW started using "forge the narrative" as an excuse for writing random rules to crevice-rape the entire game. It will probably still flourish. I like this. __________________________ * Great '92 Malbec Warning 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The thing is the game will still flourish in good gaming enviorments, but in areas where people are taking advantage of the rules and bringing jacked up armies and constantly playing to win, it will discourage new players with an unfriendly enviorment. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The thing is the game will still flourish in good gaming enviorments, but in areas where people are taking advantage of the rules and bringing jacked up armies and constantly playing to win, it will discourage new players with an unfriendly enviorment. The game has always had this issue and many games today have this issue. You can't have diverse awesome stuff without missing the boat occasionally and opening up issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raak Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The game has always had this issue and many games today have this issue. You can't have diverse awesome stuff without missing the boat occasionally and opening up issues. spot on. I think these 'issues' might really be molehills but I don't know. A "molehill" sunk the titanic as it were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I admit I was wrong. Kevin Joey and others 40k sucks. This Sunday I was able to see how stupid supplements are. Of course the ones for your own armies are awesome but what about all the rest. They should not be allowed in tourney play. At all. Matter of fact it disgusts me. Seeing no painted barely put together models. That are power lists. I get it but what about those who can't compete with that. This dissuaded me from going to any competitive tournaments in the future. This is simply stupid. There are too many avenues to learn and if you want to, you have to pay to get the data slates, supplement codicies and escalation rules. Hell no. I vote if we run tournaments that those are not allowed. There has to be a way to override this. Maybe list rating. Idk. This may be the shadow as the storm approaches regarding my 40k career. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I admit I was wrong. Kevin Joey and others 40k sucks. This Sunday I was able to see how stupid supplements are. Of course the ones for your own armies are awesome but what about all the rest. They should not be allowed in tourney play. At all. Matter of fact it disgusts me. Seeing no painted barely put together models. That are power lists. I get it but what about those who can't compete with that. This dissuaded me from going to any competitive tournaments in the future. This is simply stupid. There are too many avenues to learn and if you want to, you have to pay to get the data slates, supplement codicies and escalation rules. Hell no. I vote if we run tournaments that those are not allowed. There has to be a way to override this. Maybe list rating. Idk. This may be the shadow as the storm approaches regarding my 40k career. That bad? Care to elaborate on what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 What happened is a wraithknight warlord. And the flamer weapons they have. Then I was given the new data slates of tyranids. Powerful? Yes. Great in apocalypse? Yes. 40k? Absolutely not. That is why there is apoc. What happened is all the people who brought fun normally competitive armies were stomped. Tau/Dar owned face. Tau and forge world demons beat our standard tyranid space marine combo. Only barely. Three riptides, what is any one supposed to do. Mostly there wasn't much to see, but what I did see was the storm that is coming. And of course I can't touch gw and people will continue to buy models and win tournaments so long as they have more money. Sorry tau players but there isn't a whole lot of tactics in putting a riptide list on the table and shooting. Don't feel to good when you win. You didn't really do anything. That is where 40k is going. Titans, supplements, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_devil Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Deep breath guys. GW doesn't give a [big bad swear word]. But the sky isn't falling. Just do what most of the major GTs are doing. No dataslates/formations, no escalation, no stronghold assault, NO LORDS OF WAR. The frontline guys that just put on the Las Vegas Open (*borat voice* great success!) went further to allow only one ally per army, and changed 2++ re-rollable to a 2++/4++. I hear the tournies at DTG are modelled after Frontline Gaming events but allow datslates. I would go all the way and ban those too. That's just my opinion. I've been playing 40k since second edition. But the major GTs have it together, you cannot allow everything. It is just not appropriate at a tournament level. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrizic Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 What happened is a wraithknight warlord. And the flamer weapons they have. Then I was given the new data slates of tyranids. Powerful? Yes. Great in apocalypse? Yes. 40k? Absolutely not. That is why there is apoc. What happened is all the people who brought fun normally competitive armies were stomped. Tau/Dar owned face. Tau and forge world demons beat our standard tyranid space marine combo. Only barely. Three riptides, what is any one supposed to do. Mostly there wasn't much to see, but what I did see was the storm that is coming. And of course I can't touch gw and people will continue to buy models and win tournaments so long as they have more money. Sorry tau players but there isn't a whole lot of tactics in putting a riptide list on the table and shooting. Don't feel to good when you win. You didn't really do anything. That is where 40k is going. Titans, supplements, etc. I'm glad someone else got a chance to see this. I haven't been bringing the meanest lists I can, I've toned it down considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Baby bath water and all that... I'm still not convinced data slates are the problem i'm sure some suck but I'm thinking no more than two codexes at once in any army regardless will be enough that and the fact that winning isn't the aim... I just haven't made a final determination. Bigger problem would be some one who brings the data slates that are a problematic as that type of player would abuse any system in place. I'm still of the mind that it is the player not the game that is the issue. We need to embrace those players and bring them around to the right way to play... not ban them into only playing each other and never learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raak Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Baby bath water and all that... I'm still not convinced data slates are the problem i'm sure some suck but I'm thinking no more than two codexes at once in any army regardless will be enough that and the fact that winning isn't the aim... I just haven't made a final determination. Bigger problem would be some one who brings the data slates that are a problematic as that type of player would abuse any system in place. I'm still of the mind that it is the player not the game that is the issue. We need to embrace those players and bring them around to the right way to play... not ban them into only playing each other and never learning. Great point! I DO think once you have all the players drinking the Kool-Aid you need to look at standardization for the Sat. tourneys though. If all the bigtime TO's have been talking and are basically trying to find a consensus which seems like - no Stronghold, Escalation or Dataslates and nerf the 2++ to a 4++ - If the DTG tournaments were to adopt what is becoming the new tournament model it not only legitimizes/affiliates the events with the larger GTs but makes an even playing field. If the players want to play slates and escalation the cool! Send them my way - I like crazy stuff I don't fully understand. For organized tournament play though, I'd be wary of trusting the players you taught vs. just adopting a basic and really non-restrictive RuleSet. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Baby bath water and all that... I'm still not convinced data slates are the problem i'm sure some suck but I'm thinking no more than two codexes at once in any army regardless will be enough that and the fact that winning isn't the aim... I just haven't made a final determination. Bigger problem would be some one who brings the data slates that are a problematic as that type of player would abuse any system in place. I'm still of the mind that it is the player not the game that is the issue. We need to embrace those players and bring them around to the right way to play... not ban them into only playing each other and never learning. I think it matters not on the player but which data slate goes against which army. The d flamers of eldar aren't nearly as devastating against marines as the are me. That unit can vape all my mc (even the carnifex brood) in one turn. They are too fast. Put them in a wave serpent and they can make it any where. Instant killing on 6. No cover or armor saves. I haven't even started on the wraith knight yet. It's turning my army into only one viable list for tourneys. The flying circus. How do you stop those players from playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 And Corey if Shaun is right and the data slates operate outside of foc then here is a reason not to bring them. 9 flying mcs and 3units of gargoyles that score and come back to life on a 4+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Shaun is right they are out of foc but have their own requirements. Nids getting some late game objective takers is actually really good means they can actually pay the objective game. Again it is the player that abuses things. All those flying monstrous creatures against a dug in force with lots of Sky fire could make a really cool game, just cuz you can doesn't mean you should. And just cuz it can be done doesn't mean it will be. I'll be asking why and not making mountains outta mole hills. one guy that showed up for the wrong type of game already won't be coming back, I'm not afraid of confrontation. What do you guys think of only playing two rounds at 3 hours for the Saturday events? More likely to finish even with random game length and would give a less rushed more garage feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I like more rounds vs time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggies01 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 And see there is the problem. There has to be some sort of default d bag standard. How many flying mcs is too much? 4? 2? 7? And based on who's opinion? See I would say 4 is a competitive list. However many of my opponents would say 3 is too much. Now add in I have to take 4 with that list and also gargoyles. Not to mention that list would be anywhere from 800 - 1200 pts. So I still have to add at least 800 more points to my list. That data slate itself could be competitive. So how do we judge? And someone driving to our tournaments being told they can't play is more d baggy then actually allowing a 40 riptides. If mugu did that to me there would have been hell to pay. They didn't and mugu is awesome but we can't do that to people. There has to be a standard and fair judging process but data slates don't allowing that. Yes a dug in skyfire list would be effective against mine. But really only me. So it isn't tourney viable. Most people will put a d line and two fliers to counter fliers. Other than that it is a ground battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I would say somewhere around 2 flyers or 4 monsterous flying creatures. I would say 2 flyers because anything morethen that is hard to destroy unless you allocate a bunch of points to a unit wth AT and skyfire. While i say 4 monsterous flying creatures because you dont need AT weapons to kill them, you can do that with lasguns by just causing grounding tests which means potentially any unit can kill them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raak Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 The thing is the game will still flourish in good gaming enviorments, but in areas where people are taking advantage of the rules and bringing jacked up armies and constantly playing to win, it will discourage new players with an unfriendly enviorment. Club the Baby Seals!! <Adjusting filter> I mean.... I agree. It would have sucked if people weren't so welcoming and gracious when I started playing tabletop at DTG. Thankfully things remain that way to this very day! Noone punished my newness with "well now you know because that painful lesson just taught you". That being said, I have had to learn how to take a beating and not be a punk about it. Thanks to all the nice folks who have helped me and are still helping me start this great hobby. You've taught me something cool - how to enjoy BeatFace meta and how to enjoy fluffier fun stuff that makes me learn more about the 40k Universe itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts