Local Meta vs Composition vs Restrictions

[JMGraham]

How do we make sure that games are fun? How do we make certain other folks aren't bringing abusive, OP armies that kill hobbies?

 

In the local scene, it's easy. We don't only game together. We also drink together, hang out, and have sleep-overs at Brad's. Because we're friends, we don't act like dicks to each other, and if we do, we get called out for it, apologize, and modify our behavior accordingly. It's easy to deal with power creep in the local meta as long as we continue to talk about what's fair, etc. Even new people quickly pick up on the vibe, and generally strive to fit in.

 

The main problems with which folks are concerned seem to arise when we bring folks into tournaments (e.g., Shae describing what type of tournament he'd like to run) and going to other tournaments (e.g., Shae and Jason bitching about the MuGu games team tournament). When ongoing relationships aren't in place to make folks not behave like jerks, folks are more likely to behave like jerks. To mitigate that, many tournaments use either restrictions or composition rules. I'm going to use Fantasy as an example for these, because they have some really well-established systems in place. I wish I knew of some good restriction/comp systems for 40k, but I'm not familiar enough with the 40k tournament scene to find them quickly.

 

Restrictions involve restricting the armies that people can bring, above and beyond what is listed in the books. This process involves deciding that GW rules are not balanced, and some are crap. Restrictions can be simple (like 2000 points, single force org, one ally only, no Lords of War, Data Slates, Escalation, or Stronghold), or more complex. The more complex systems often call out specific units or items and either ban them outright, or do something to prevent spamming or nasty combinations. This requires an ongoing discussion and continuous revision, as new books and rules can really change the game. One of the best examples of this sort of restriction is the European Team Championships (ETC) for Fantasy. This is likely the biggest Warhammer tournament in the world, and draws people from across the world. Because folks from different countries might have different expectations, it's important to put everyone on even footing. Here's the most recent restrictions for the ETC: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i1wJfthKQ4ObS0Mlc1TvVtvfWdB3U7PucH8cGFVuf-E/pub

 

Army composition involves rating the approximate strength of a list and using that rating to influence the tourney results. Some tournaments include composition scores in final scores (with weaker armies getting more points), some tournaments use composition scores along with scores to determine match-ups, and some tournaments give in-game handicaps to players (in the form of bonus VPs) based on the relative strength of the two armies. Composition scores can be rated by one's opponents (either before the game or after), by a committee of raters before the tournament (as done in the OFCC), or by using an objective rubric. Composition scores rated by one's opponent after the match has been played has been given a somewhat bad rap, as it's difficult to disentangle the cause and effect of a player losing and the strength of their opponent's army. The use of a rubric has the advantage that players will know what their army composition will be when building their army, and can decide how they would like to balance army strength with composition score. One good example of an objective rubric for composition in Fantasy is what is known as the "Swedish" comp system: http://www.nopat.fi/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Swedish-Comp-System-v1.7.1.pdf

 

Finally, you can combine restrictions and composition. A tournament might use the Swedish Comp System and restrict armies attending the tournament to have a comp score of at least 10, so that the most abusive armies are barred, and that folks know that taking weaker armies will let them have a handicap.

 

Any of these solutions require enormous effort. None of them are perfect, but I would like to argue that some kind of method is preferable to none. If one of these three systems (local meta, restrictions, comp) is not brought to bear, the lowest common denominator wins, and abusive armies beget abusive armies and so forth. To be successful, the systems in place have to be known by the tournament participants well in advance. The systems in place are part of what potential participants should consider when deciding whether to attend. There should be no surprises when someone shows up.

 

Locally, I think we're set. We have the local meta well-established, and have good relationships with each other to address problems as they arise. I'm not worried about our local games ceasing being fun. 

 

What do you think?  What types of systems are reasonable to put in place for events that we run? At what types of events do you want to play? What other solutions are there?

[intrizic]

we could look at what the 40k ETC is doing and take notes from that.  

 

I have been pondering this, and will continue to, but really I don't know.  I look to Reece and Mike Brandt for those answers, between the two of them they come up with some really great solutions ( and I know they are just the face men of organizations ).  I wish Ordo Fanaticus took more of a community role in this as I feel they set the pace for the Northwest, which was another reason why I pursued a northwest tournament circuit, to help deal with these issues on a larger scale, to try to get a region consensus on rules and to address community issues and I feel this is a community issue.

 

As far as: What types of systems are reasonable to put in place for events that we run?

-Honestly, the answer to this is the system WE want to play, because if we can't even get our locals to come out to events, then why should we expect anyone from out of town to come?

 

​-All of them, seriously.  When I travel to a tournament, schedule allowing I do a non-competitive event.  At Nova I did the narrative event.  At LVO I did the Zombie Apocalypse event.

 

I am troubled by the situation GW is creating, but this isn't the place for that rant.

[huggies01]

One issue that arises is that there are abusive list as well as abusive players. The best example I have that may cause some problems is my last years OFCC list which was deceptively strong. It was rated pretty weak I believe however anyone who played that list was quick to learn that it was far from it. Herein lies the bane of judging. I truly believe that unless you have played an army and invested in it there is no way to understand its strengths and weaknesses. Hell even if you do play the army...again take Shaun. For some reason that escapes me he takes termagaunts and finds a way to win with them. I on the other hand debate whether or not I should put those models under my rear tire while leaving to go to DT. So if I were to judge his army without any previous knowledge that it could be an incorrect assessment. 

 

I think there is a very strong talent in list making, just as much as there is in tactics. If we choose to ban certain units that those list makers will find a way to create these ghost lists. With that said there are also just some d-bag players (human beings) that will play to win. They will snake and eek their way into the handicap zone disregarding all morals and self-respect just to say they won. I think handicapping will benefit new players as much as the D-bags. That's why I like leveling the playing field. Leave the spam for the Smokers. Spamming and allies are where the issue is birthed. Look at any competitive tourney list and I guarantee that the good units are there in number. If not than they have some type of battle bros bull. I get it, it is really about the 3 riptides. But honestly if you end a tournament saying, "well there was nothing I could do about 3 riptides, (or helldrakes)" and someone responds with, "there is really nothing anyone can do about that", then there is a problem. It has to stop or 40k will die. 

[JMGraham]

If we choose to ban certain units that those list makers will find a way to create these ghost lists.

 

Leave the spam for the Smokers. Spamming and allies are where the issue is birthed. Look at any competitive tourney list and I guarantee that the good units are there in number. If not than they have some type of battle bros bull. I get it, it is really about the 3 riptides. But honestly if you end a tournament saying, "well there was nothing I could do about 3 riptides, (or helldrakes)" and someone responds with, "there is really nothing anyone can do about that", then there is a problem. It has to stop or 40k will die. 

 

To your first statement, I say:

 

 

None of them are perfect, but I would like to argue that some kind of method is preferable to none. 

 

To the second one, it sounds like you're in the restrictions camp.

 

@Loren - 40k WCP doesn't use composition or restrictions, save for the team piece (each army can only show up once in the team as a primary and once as an allied detachment). Here's the comp system some of the Australians are working on: http://www.australasianteamchallenge.com/Other/CompSystemWarhammer40k.pdf 

[intrizic]

ty Jim

 

Maybe it's about finding the 'unanswerable units', like anything with a ranged D weapon.

 

Also, I've heard it said in many places that battle brothers are the root of many evils in 6th.  I think that a few battle brother situations are ok, but any BBs with Tau a bad, it might be a tie between Baron Sathonyx and The Buff Commander for most exploited rules.

 

I feel that this next bit needs to be said:

Our meta doesn't do much to prepare us for the meta in the larger community.  No one brings those mean lists, then when we go out, we are entirely unprepared to deal with them.  Some of those nasty lists have counters, but we will never discover them because we never play them.  I am NOT saying that the way we play is wrong, I'm just offering perspective.

 

what if you used a side board in our events?

[TW_Haines]

We I'm still new, but truth be told I think that restrictions are a bummer. If my list was a ball buster or I was(am) a dbag. Then no one will play with me. There lays the restriction that works. As for what level of play its simple state what your looking for.

   If you play me I play a FW army my Warlord has a 2up armour 5up invul, that can be insta killed. But he is just to much fun.

Also I love assault and don't care for holding out for reserves so no flyers. If we start to restrict things I'm out in the cold as a FW army.

I aint playing the army for any reason  other than fun of it. Thay are good dont get me wrong, but not game braking.

[JMGraham]

. If my list was a ball buster or I was(am) a dbag. Then no one will play with me. There lays the restriction that works. As for what level of play its simple state what your looking for.

 

What you're describing is what I referred to as the local meta. I agree that in Bellingham, it seems to be working well for 40k.

 

I don't know that FW stuff needs to be restricted across the board. Many folks widely accept the FW books as legit. In fantasy, the Chaos Dwarf list is all FW, and near universally accepted. As are some fan made books, for that matter.

 

I'll play your Charcaradons anything! Even if you travel to a tournament where they are disallowed, you can still use Codex space mArine rules.

 

Battle brothers just let you join units, right? That seems an easy fix.

[VonVilkee]

Jim said this to me long ago and I think it is spot on. Your army list is the sportsmanship you show before the game.

 

To me this means I would be willing to swap armies with anyone across the treble from me and try to beat what I use with what they brought. Keeps me honest, I also find it the easiest easy to explain our local meta...

[intrizic]

There are a couple FW units that a bad, but as a whole the FW I have come up against in tournaments hasn't been that impressive.

[VonVilkee]

Problem I've found over the years is that fantasy is more gentlemanly if you will. It has been my experience that on the whole fantasy players show more sportsmanship than the same cut of 40k players in an area. Dunno what it is but that has been my takeaway for awhile now, part of the reason I don't push to hard to integrate... Maybe it has something to do with the guns...

[huggies01]

Just keep in mind guys, it is going to be very hard to slightly alter the game play and not expect significant changes. Look at dataslates. Slight changes to units or models that have devastating results as per 40k. Much like the war in the middle east, there is no way to change a few aspects of a single army without potentially ruining another's army. 

 

TW Haines - those lists are ok in friendly 40k games but I think only in a friendly game, but too much for tournaments. Unless it is a tournament that is super competitive. As in TSHIFT. So I have heard from Loren.

 

And Corey what dissuaded me from attending your 3rd sat. tourneys is (was) my work but also seeing a tournament where 3 riptides and a skyshield landing pad were in play. YES THERE ARE COUNTERS TO THAT! HOWEVER NOT ENOUGH IN A TOURNAMENT!   This is where Nathaniel's point is valid. How do you build an all comers list to that??? That list works against almost everything if not everything. But not every list works against that. And it's not just nids I am talking about. 

[JMGraham]

Sweet baby Jesus in a baby carriage, Shae, I haven't seen you this chicken little in for-never. Let's just open up our wrists and bleed out. I don't know what happened to you at MuGu, but you've got gamer PTSD summat fierce. Lighten up, there's not a neck bearded thug waiting in the Dark Tower bathroom with three riptides in a sock to bludgeon you.

 

...or is there?

[huggies01]

Jim I get the idea that maybe you haven't faced how bad some of these lists can be. I don't think brad was even expecting how stupid helldrakes can be last tuesday. But I bet if you told him you want to bring two more he'd [big bad swear word] a brick. Knowing brad he would still play but imagine that in a tourney. Ugh. It's not what happened it's what I saw. Like that one time as a child you looked through your parents bedroom keyhole on a dark summer evening, there is no amount of bleach that can make you unsee what you saw. Now imagine every time you play you just get tabled. The hell is the point? The hell is the $2000 dollar point. You know what...you just gotta face one of these lists. Is there no one who sees just how bad some of these combos are?

[Fix]

Yeah, it's true that dragon is too cool for school, but that list I ran was straight dumb.  I had no dedicated anti-air (apart from the possibility of hijacking Jim's), and Banshees are just awful.  I also played poorly, rolled poorly, and so on.

 

That said, having played it once, if seeing a second helldrake against my list, let alone a third across from me at a tournament, I'd probably just chalk up the loss and talk for that couple hours or play something else.

 

Of course, I'd have never played that list at a tournament.  I did and did well with it early on in Fifth, but it's just not that game anymore.

 

I was trying to figure out how to build my imperial list out to deal with stuff like Riptides, but honestly they've nerfed everything that it was good at (doing things when arriving from reserves, mostly) that pretty well the only option I have is to wait and see what comes from a new book.

 

Anyway, that's all an aside from the actual point of the thread, so I'll stop now.

[VonVilkee]

Just keep in mind guys, it is going to be very hard to slightly alter the game play and not expect significant changes. Look at dataslates. Slight changes to units or models that have devastating results as per 40k. Much like the war in the middle east, there is no way to change a few aspects of a single army without potentially ruining another's army.

 

TW Haines - those lists are ok in friendly 40k games but I think only in a friendly game, but too much for tournaments. Unless it is a tournament that is super competitive. As in TSHIFT. So I have heard from Loren.

 

And Corey what dissuaded me from attending your 3rd sat. tourneys is (was) my work but also seeing a tournament where 3 riptides and a skyshield landing pad were in play. YES THERE ARE COUNTERS TO THAT! HOWEVER NOT ENOUGH IN A TOURNAMENT! This is where Nathaniel's point is valid. How do you build an all comers list to that??? That list works against almost everything if not everything. But not every list works against that. And it's not just nids I am talking about.

 

That gentleman was talked to And hasn't come back, that is the thing for the community involvement to work you have to take it on the chin every so often. I'm heavily struggling with how wide to spread the word. The Kirkman brothers come every so often and they rock but I'm not particularly interested in rehabilitating mugu or many of the Olympians.

 

It is really hard to balance all the variables which is why I wish more of the hamsters would show regularly. The TO can set whatever restrictions he wants however without a cache of players doing it right there will be those that abuse any system in place which starts the arms race all over. That is why I've been working towards raffling all prizes. I've been working on Nathaniel to shift from paying out winners to incenting good play and sportsmanship. Wasn't easy Nathaniel is/was a competitive guy at heart and realistically most gamers don't travel.

 

The competitive travel the most, as the best way to win is to play people you don't play regularly. It increases your odds, another thing that I get stuck on is that timed games are a change that impacts things heavily. I like tourneys for broadening my horizons and getting out of my opponent comfort zone but with my gaming time and the large pool around here I don't need to do that much.

[Raak]

Sweet baby Jesus in a baby carriage, Shae, I haven't seen you this chicken little in for-never. Let's just open up our wrists and bleed out. I don't know what happened to you at MuGu, but you've got gamer PTSD summat fierce. Lighten up, there's not a neck bearded thug waiting in the Dark Tower bathroom with three riptides in a sock to bludgeon you.

 

...or is there?

</Slips O'Vesa Star Behind back/> Brightly:"Hey Shae!"

[JMGraham]

Here's the topic on the 40k comp system. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=164024

 

I've been playing around with it, and it's actually quite clever. My CSM/daemon army scores a 9/20, which is pretty middle of the road. My suggested competitive Eldar army is a 2/20, which fits. It's pretty damn strong. My Necron army at the OFCC would have been a 5/20. I like that the system really penalizes spam with the cumulative modifier. One Heldrake with a baleflamer costs 3 comp points, but the second one costs 5, and the third one costs 7. Similar with riptides and wraithknights.

 

Interesting stuff. I don't know the big net lists out there, but it might be interesting to run them through the system to make sure they fit.

[generalripphook]

Problem I've found over the years is that fantasy is more gentlemanly if you will. It has been my experience that on the whole fantasy players show more sportsmanship than the same cut of 40k players in an area. Dunno what it is but that has been my takeaway for awhile now, part of the reason I don't push to hard to integrate... Maybe it has something to do with the guns...

I would say that it is in part with the min percentages for core choices and percentages for all parts of the FOC, which balances an army a bit.

 

Similarly I think it's the fact that melee and magic are really the only sure ways to destroy a unit (and thus achieve victory points)

[sergentzimm]

Here's the topic on the 40k comp system. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=164024

 

I've been playing around with it, and it's actually quite clever. My CSM/daemon army scores a 9/20, which is pretty middle of the road. My suggested competitive Eldar army is a 2/20, which fits. It's pretty damn strong. My Necron army at the OFCC would have been a 5/20. I like that the system really penalizes spam with the cumulative modifier. One Heldrake with a baleflamer costs 3 comp points, but the second one costs 5, and the third one costs 7. Similar with riptides and wraithknights.

 

Interesting stuff. I don't know the big net lists out there, but it might be interesting to run them through the system to make sure they fit.

 

I think I like the majority of what I see in there. I am not sure I'm sold on the points affect on the tournament but I like the points system and values in there. 

[Fix]

Here's the topic on the 40k comp system. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=164024

 

I've been playing around with it, and it's actually quite clever. My CSM/daemon army scores a 9/20, which is pretty middle of the road. My suggested competitive Eldar army is a 2/20, which fits. It's pretty damn strong. My Necron army at the OFCC would have been a 5/20. I like that the system really penalizes spam with the cumulative modifier. One Heldrake with a baleflamer costs 3 comp points, but the second one costs 5, and the third one costs 7. Similar with riptides and wraithknights.

 

Interesting stuff. I don't know the big net lists out there, but it might be interesting to run them through the system to make sure they fit.

 

Ehh, that doesn't give you bonus points for taking howling banshees, so I'm skeptical.

[Raak]

So something like the Tau-Dar "Farsight Bomb" falls where excctly on this spectrum?

(2,000 single force org), 2 codices

HQ

Farsight 165

Shadowsun 135

Bodyguard – 7 suits – 682
4 suits – 2 Plasma guns, Target Locks
2 suits – 2 Fusion guns, Target Locks
1 suit – Iridium armor, Puretide Chip, Multi-spectrum Suite, Command and Control node, Hit and Run
4 Shield Drones
10 Gun Drones

Elites
Riptide – Ion Cannon, Interceptor 190

Riptide – Ion Cannon, Interceptor 190

Troops
10 Kroot 60

10 Kroot 60

Heavy
Sky Ray – Black Sun Filter 116

Sky Ray – Black Sun Filter 116

Eldar Allies

HQ

Farseer – Bike, Runes of Warding, Shard of Anaris 165

Troops
3 Jetbikes 51

3 Jetbikes 51

1,999.

[Fix]

So something like the Tau-Dar "Farsight Bomb" falls where excctly on this spectrum?

(2,000 single force org), 2 codices

HQ

Farsight 165

Shadowsun 135

Bodyguard – 7 suits – 682

4 suits – 2 Plasma guns, Target Locks

2 suits – 2 Fusion guns, Target Locks

1 suit – Iridium armor, Puretide Chip, Multi-spectrum Suite, Command and Control node, Hit and Run

4 Shield Drones

10 Gun Drones

Elites

Riptide – Ion Cannon, Interceptor 190

Riptide – Ion Cannon, Interceptor 190

Troops

10 Kroot 60

10 Kroot 60

Heavy

Sky Ray – Black Sun Filter 116

Sky Ray – Black Sun Filter 116

Eldar Allies

HQ

Farseer – Bike, Runes of Warding, Shard of Anaris 165

Troops

3 Jetbikes 51

3 Jetbikes 51

1,999.

 

It would appear to depend on whether they count the points you spend for Shadowsun and Farsight to be separate from the points you pay for battlesuits beyond 4, but it looks like it's anywhere from 1/20 to straight up illegal by a couple of points.

[VonVilkee]

Yeah, I'm going to poss this along as it gives some semblance of guidelines.

 

Also excited that my typical list only amounts to nine points so I'm at 11/20! Wahoo... If I switch back to the stern guard I switch to a much harder 13/20 (edit math wrong 7/20) course that is off the cuff my scoring models count might drop a bit...

[intrizic]

I think it's a good frame work but i disagree with some of their pricing, for necrons in particular.  I think anni barges should be ( C-2).  I think those ratings have some holes as well though, Thunderfire cannons should be (c -2) as well imo

 

*Was there a comp hit for ally'ing with yourself?  Not that I could see, I think that should be a comp hit

 

*There should also be a comp hit for taking a BB as an ally

[VonVilkee]

Most of the abusive bb combos get hit. Buff suit, White scar master on bike Khan, ics with good rules for things...

 

Any of the ick combos from bb get hit and the more you pay to the strength of it the more your hit. Thunder fires maybe are low but you figure 2 of them are 5 points together as is isn't bad 3 would be 9 And the fires aren't bad depending on what they are paired with... That is the beauty of it... I've always said any system can be gamed if the player wants to...