Justjokin Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Not one piece of this thread makes me feel good about this particular direction of the game. I am certain that people can have a good time with this, but I guess I have a bunch of monies to spend before I join a tourney that uses any of these rules. I already miss good ol' 6th edition 40K. :) If you remove the Forge World stuff from the equation, like I said, it all comes down to the C'tan and the Revenant. Does it at least make for quicker games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 You don't have any indirect weapons, so why have I deployed with TLOS for the entire army? Harridan is likely in reserve, given it's huge size, I really get the feeling, reading your posts, that you aren't playing with much tall terrain. If you buy GW ruins, those should give you an idea on how tall terrain should be for 40k.... Holding your units in reserve just means they come in piecemeal and gives me more chances to use Interceptor. That's nothing but an advantage for me. FMC armies need to play aggressively to win, and reserving stuff is the opposite of that. You and I seem to be thinking of completely different models. Do you seriously think you can hide a Crone or Harpy behind any of those? Have you ever actually seen how big the Crone kit is? You could hide the Genestealers, sure, at least until I sent a Vendetta-embarked squad to go deal with them, but your FMCs? Not gonna be ducking out of sight even behind the biggest of those. Look at the pictures you posted- there are windows, doors, etc, ALL OVER them. My 9" tall titan will easily be able to see some part of your models through the door. You keep harping on blocking terrain like it's the solution to all the problems in the world, but either you are playing with truly absurd amounts of it (covering half or more of the table) or you're just overestimating the effect it has. All those huge ruins give shooting units great places to deploy into to look down on the battlefield, which negates a lot of the disadvantages of having them around. Yeah, terrain pictured has lots of open areas, but in escalation you should have at least 1 tall TLOS blocking terrain piece per table quarter....or you will find D weapons horribly unbalanced. They are not indirect weapons and that is for balance. Get a mountain or something to block TLOS. Wait, so you think having 16"+ long and 12"+ tall pieces of BLOS terrain in every table quarter is the "normal" way to play the game? Sorry to break it to you, dude, but that's your personal version of 40K. There are lots of things you can do with terrain that will rebalance the game, but that doesn't make them even slightly official. Heck, I could "fix" Escalation by demanding everyone play using Zone Mortalis terrain- bam, no more titans or superheavy vehicles being able to move around, game fixed. For fluffy reasons, You don't fight a battle where terrain will make the battle lopsided. Yeah, surprises and such, but you shouldn't be fighting a super heavy that just snuck up on you....maybe in apocalypse. At GG, we've got a FoR tower as a ruined building. It's ~14" tall and blocks TLOS well. Dude, I have played with a G.I. JOE PLAYSET many, many times. If you think you can hide the flying Hive Tyrant model behind one of those against a unit with a 12" move in most deployments, you are dreaming. Heck, I don't even need to be able to see you if you're bringing the building- I can shoot at the building and have the template clip your Tyrant and kill them both with the same shot. (Stronghold Assault rules, remember.) Anyway, list was just to keep you thinking while I consider the list construction end. I'm still doing so. If you wanna play this out on the tabletop sometime, I'll be more than happy to show you once you've put together your list. Well, assuming I can get up to Portland or you can get down to Corvallis, but... Not one piece of this thread makes me feel good about this particular direction of the game. I am certain that people can have a good time with this, but I guess I have a bunch of monies to spend before I join a tourney that uses any of these rules. I already miss good ol' 6th edition 40K. Well, since that's what most people actually play anyways, it shouldn't be a problem. Escalation is pretty universally reviled by casuals and competitive alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 1 Holding your units in reserve just means they come in piecemeal and gives me more chances to use Interceptor. That's nothing but an advantage for me. FMC armies need to play aggressively to win, and reserving stuff is the opposite of that. 2 You and I seem to be thinking of completely different models. Do you seriously think you can hide a Crone or Harpy behind any of those? Have you ever actually seen how big the Crone kit is? You could hide the Genestealers, sure, at least until I sent a Vendetta-embarked squad to go deal with them, but your FMCs? Not gonna be ducking out of sight even behind the biggest of those. Look at the pictures you posted- there are windows, doors, etc, ALL OVER them. My 9" tall titan will easily be able to see some part of your models through the door. 3 You keep harping on blocking terrain like it's the solution to all the problems in the world, but either you are playing with truly absurd amounts of it (covering half or more of the table) or you're just overestimating the effect it has. All those huge ruins give shooting units great places to deploy into to look down on the battlefield, which negates a lot of the disadvantages of having them around. Wait, so you think having 16"+ long and 12"+ tall pieces of BLOS terrain in every table quarter is the "normal" way to play the game? Sorry to break it to you, dude, but that's your personal version of 40K. There are lots of things you can do with terrain that will rebalance the game, but that doesn't make them even slightly official. Heck, I could "fix" Escalation by demanding everyone play using Zone Mortalis terrain- bam, no more titans or superheavy vehicles being able to move around, game fixed. 4 Dude, I have played with a G.I. JOE PLAYSET many, many times. If you think you can hide the flying Hive Tyrant model behind one of those against a unit with a 12" move in most deployments, you are dreaming. Heck, I don't even need to be able to see you if you're bringing the building- I can shoot at the building and have the template clip your Tyrant and kill them both with the same shot. (Stronghold Assault rules, remember.) 5 If you wanna play this out on the tabletop sometime, I'll be more than happy to show you once you've put together your list. Well, assuming I can get up to Portland or you can get down to Corvallis, but... 1 I missed it then, are the sabre platforms interceptor? I was thinking they just had skyfire. And you actted like the only cheesy FW unit you had was the warhound.... 2 I have seen the harpy/hive crone models. Maybe you didn't notice, but official GW TLOS rules don't count wings for MCs and FMCs. The base and stem don't count either. Yeah, so you have maybe a 2" sphere of a target if they face you. Very easy to conceal with mentioned ruins. Personally, I really think the wings should count, just as they do for flying vehicles. 3 I like to think of terrain placement and selection as part of the strategy. If I am facing a warhound, or another huge unit with TLOS weapons that are devastating, I need to insist on using TLOS blocking terrain. Even 1 or 2 big pieces in the center of the table should be enough. 4 I could eaisly hide several MCs behind it. I would not be placing it so your 12" move would work in gaining TLOS to my army with your warhound. Especially, remembering that SH-Walkers still only move d6" through terrain. I would not be putting it so close that something other than a very wild scatter could clip my flyers. 5 I've been having issues motivating myself to make lists as of late. Not really an excuse, that's the delay. I'm also trying to beat it without also bringing a warhound, as that would defeat the purpose, or so it seems to me. I do own a warhound, so fielding it is the obvious option. My warhound is one of the Armourcast ones, so it is shorter than the FW one - I wonder if this is the issue, as perhaps you are thinking of a different model than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I really hate how GW allowed apoc units into normal play, but not apoc formations. I'd gladly trade my LoW "slot" for one of many apoc formations. It would give me better flexibility in list creation and allow a smaller army transport case... -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 1 I missed it then, are the sabre platforms interceptor? I was thinking they just had skyfire. And you actted like the only cheesy FW unit you had was the warhound.... Wow...looked them up. No wonder your having issues being challenged. 50pts for an IG unit TL lascannon with skyfire, interceptor, scout, scoring, and is T7 with a 3+ armor? Those things are hideously underpriced. Even by TAU standards they are cheap interceptor weapons without all the other special rules. Honestly, take out the FW units (even just the non-LoW ones) and then try escalation again. See if it remains as broken as you think it is. It might still be, but what you are playing is closer to apocalypse than to escalation. Anyway, so counter lists. Am I restricted to any set number of FW units (or FW army lists), or is the idea to beat your cheesy list with a normal codex list? -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I missed it then, are the sabre platforms interceptor? I was thinking they just had skyfire. And you actted like the only cheesy FW unit you had was the warhound.... Ha ha, no, Sabre platforms are stupid. Incredibly stupid. They're one of a number of reasons I don't think Forge World should be included at tournaments- IG get access to so many stupidly-broken toys. I have seen the harpy/hive crone models. Maybe you didn't notice, but official GW TLOS rules don't count wings for MCs and FMCs. The base and stem don't count either. Yeah, so you have maybe a 2" sphere of a target if they face you. Very easy to conceal with mentioned ruins. Personally, I really think the wings should count, just as they do for flying vehicles. The wings don't count, yes (it's one of the things that makes it actually possible to sometimes hide the Flyrant, since its actual body isn't very large), but the base certainly does count (only flyers/skimmers ignore their bases) and since there is no real differentiation between the "tail" and "body", it's pretty hard to claim the immunity there. Being mounted on top of the flyer stand certainly doesn't help any, either. I like to think of terrain placement and selection as part of the strategy. If I am facing a warhound, or another huge unit with TLOS weapons that are devastating, I need to insist on using TLOS blocking terrain. Even 1 or 2 big pieces in the center of the table should be enough. So why doesn't the Warhound player get any say in this, then? If terrain selection is part of the strategy of the game, why do only you get to make choices in that regard? I would hardly consider it "fair" to do so, but if we're playing under this speculative set of rules, I'd find a nice, big, flat piece of area terrain and plunk it down dead-center in the middle of the board so you can't block me off there. I could eaisly hide several MCs behind it. I would not be placing it so your 12" move would work in gaining TLOS to my army with your warhound. Especially, remembering that SH-Walkers still only move d6" through terrain. I would not be putting it so close that something other than a very wild scatter could clip my flyers. I don't think that you can place something as big as a Hive Tyrant both close enough so that I can't see it and far enough that I can't clip it with the template. The tower is only 5" across- a Hive Tyrant's base is essentially 2" across, and the large blast marker is 2.5" radius. Pretty simple geometry ensures that you aren't going to have any easy placement options there. (And I think we both know that superheavy walkers moving a maximum of 6" through terrain is silly and utterly unintended.) I've been having issues motivating myself to make lists as of late. Not really an excuse, that's the delay. I'm also trying to beat it without also bringing a warhound, as that would defeat the purpose, or so it seems to me. I do own a warhound, so fielding it is the obvious option. My warhound is one of the Armourcast ones, so it is shorter than the FW one - I wonder if this is the issue, as perhaps you are thinking of a different model than I. I'm not using the actual Warhound, either- I've been using my Dreamforge Leviathan, which is closer to the Armorcast one than the Forge World one in size. (It's about an inch shorter than the FW one overall.) And yes, using a Warhound to beat my Warhound would rather defeat the point of "that unit isn't overpowered." :P Honestly, take out the FW units (even just the non-LoW ones) and then try escalation again. See if it remains as broken as you think it is. It might still be, but what you are playing is closer to apocalypse than to escalation. Anyway, so counter lists. Am I restricted to any set number of FW units (or FW army lists), or is the idea to beat your cheesy list with a normal codex list? As I said before, that doesn't actually change all that much for me. It leaves my list a lot more vulnerable to FMC spam, but that's basically it- I would be trading the Sabres over to Hydras, which weakens my scoring presence a bit, but that was never actually relevant in any of the games I've played of Escalation- they inevitably ended with tablings or near-tablings. Most of the people who argue that Escalation is "part of the game" are likewise in favor of Forge World, so I don't see any dichotomy between using the two of them. You could just as easily argue for the inclusion of Escalation but not Stronghold Assault, which feels just as weird to me. As far as writing a counter-list, bring anything FW that you please- most tournies don't allow FW army lists, but I find that a bit of a bizarre restriction, since none of them are actually any more powerful than the "core" lists, really. So bring whatever you think you can win with- that's sorta the point of a tournament list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 1 The wings don't count, yes (it's one of the things that makes it actually possible to sometimes hide the Flyrant, since its actual body isn't very large), but the base certainly does count (only flyers/skimmers ignore their bases) and since there is no real differentiation between the "tail" and "body", it's pretty hard to claim the immunity there. Being mounted on top of the flyer stand certainly doesn't help any, either. 2 So why doesn't the Warhound player get any say in this, then? If terrain selection is part of the strategy of the game, why do only you get to make choices in that regard? I would hardly consider it "fair" to do so, but if we're playing under this speculative set of rules, I'd find a nice, big, flat piece of area terrain and plunk it down dead-center in the middle of the board so you can't block me off there. 3 I don't think that you can place something as big as a Hive Tyrant both close enough so that I can't see it and far enough that I can't clip it with the template. The tower is only 5" across- a Hive Tyrant's base is essentially 2" across, and the large blast marker is 2.5" radius. Pretty simple geometry ensures that you aren't going to have any easy placement options there. 4 As far as writing a counter-list, bring anything FW that you please- most tournies don't allow FW army lists, but I find that a bit of a bizarre restriction, since none of them are actually any more powerful than the "core" lists, really. So bring whatever you think you can win with- that's sorta the point of a tournament list. 1 Ooo...didn't notice that one. Base does count for FMCs. Neat. 2 d3 pieces of terrain per 2'x2' section of the table, players alternate placing (and picking) terrain. Warhound player gets equal turns to place irritating terrain as their opponent. Typically, very wide terrain pieces are avoided because they mess with 40k rules in lots of little ways, like techmarines bolstering terrain. Tall pieces aren't usually frowned upon, though they don't occupy all of the pieces. In apocalpse we often use taller terrain more plentifully, but in apocalypse, your welcome to include formations and units that can destroy terrain pieces.... 3 I could be thinking of the older flyrant models. How tall is the current hive tyrant kit? How wide, when excluding wings? The base itself should be pretty easy to hide so long as I don't have some amazing diorama on it. 4 Will do. I mostly agree against restrictions in the ruleset. I do think that when you suggest that escalation is broken, but your sample list is mostly broken for it's inclusion of units not found in the escalation rulebook, the statement of escalation being broken is misleading - not nessessarily wrong, just misleading. Any objections to apocalypse formations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I could be thinking of the older flyrant models. How tall is the current hive tyrant kit? How wide, when excluding wings? The base itself should be pretty easy to hide so long as I don't have some amazing diorama on it. Not counting the wings, but counting the "arms," the current Tyrant is 4.5" tall and ~3" across. Will do. I mostly agree against restrictions in the ruleset. I do think that when you suggest that escalation is broken, but your sample list is mostly broken for it's inclusion of units not found in the escalation rulebook, the statement of escalation being broken is misleading - not nessessarily wrong, just misleading. Any objections to apocalypse formations? Again, though, I was using what was available to me- if it had been an Escalation tournament without Forge World, I would've brought a different-but-still-broken list. I know you like Apocalypse formations, but there are not any rules for using them in the standard game at all and I have never seen any tournament that allows them or uses any other parts of the Apocalypse rulebook. I think it's rather a stretch to include them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I know you like Apocalypse formations, but there are not any rules for using them in the standard game at all and I have never seen any tournament that allows them or uses any other parts of the Apocalypse rulebook. I think it's rather a stretch to include them. Well, the escalation book is mostly just re-printed material from the apocalypse book. So, in many respects, escalation is part of the apocalypse book. Anyway, main issue I've been having with list creation is the FOC. Your list works because the IG barely follow a single FOC with their platoon rules. Hmmm...How about this one: CSM 1750pts HQ Sorcerer (lvl2, MB) Troops Cultists (10) Troops Cultists (10) LoW Chaos Reaver Titan (TL Turbo Laser destructor, 2x Laser Blaster, Daemon of Tzeentch) Thanks to those completely balanced FW rules, it's perfectly legal to field a Reaver or chaos Reaver titan in games of escalation via the same PDF that says you can use a warhound. Unlike the mediocre warhound, this sucker is sporting 4 built-in void shields, 8 D templates, and 18 Hull points. Unlike the normal Reaver, this one counts as a daemon, so has a 5++ in addition to the above. Your move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Turn 1, I destroy the area void shield with laser blaster 1, and knock out the 2x void shields on the reaver with the turbo laser, then hit the warhound with 3x D weapons from laser blaster 2. I can't techincally kill your flyers, but that reaver is a monster and I should be able to mostly ignore them, as broken as that sounds...Just lucky it wasn't 1800pts total, as I could add "it will not die" to it as a Daemon of Nurgle.... If looking for a more all-comers list, destructor on the reaver change to carapace Vulcan mega blaster, Titan CCW, and Laser blaster. Vulcan has 15 S6 shots for AA, even if it must snap. Laser blaster is 3 D templates and titan CCW is a D melee weapon. Oh, and I'd swtich Daemon of Tzeentch for Daemon of Khorne, as that one adds +d3 attacks on the charge, which would matter with the D melee weapon. That would pretty much cover all my bases in one model, even if a bit sub-par in the AA end. This version might have more trouble against your list, but should do better on average against the other types. Cultist units go in reserves, with solo sorcerer near the reaver and out of enemy TLOS. I might not even bother rolling psychic powers. In your list's case, I'm thinking turn 1, I destroy the void shield generator with the laser blaster (3x D plates vs 2 shields and the generator). Vulcan destroy one of the lascannon sabre platforms (15 shots, 10 hits, 3-4 wounds, cover only). That is first blood if I go first. In addition, titan moves to assault your titan, which probably isn't in range for turn 1. Turn 2, you probably land 4x D weapons into my titan as well as trying very hard to damage it as much as possible. Ultimately, I'll probably make assault turn 2 or 3. Then I'd be nearly impossible to destroy, given the 5++ on a AV14 walker with a D melee weapon. Even with just 1 HP left, I don't think your list is very capable of destroying it in assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Well, the escalation book is mostly just re-printed material from the apocalypse book. So, in many respects, escalation is part of the apocalypse book. Anyway, main issue I've been having with list creation is the FOC. Your list works because the IG barely follow a single FOC with their platoon rules. Hmmm...How about this one: CSM 1750pts HQ Sorcerer (lvl2, MB) Troops Cultists (10) Troops Cultists (10) LoW Chaos Reaver Titan (TL Turbo Laser destructor, 2x Laser Blaster, Daemon of Tzeentch) Thanks to those completely balanced FW rules, it's perfectly legal to field a Reaver or chaos Reaver titan in games of escalation via the same PDF that says you can use a warhound. Unlike the mediocre warhound, this sucker is sporting 4 built-in void shields, 8 D templates, and 18 Hull points. Unlike the normal Reaver, this one counts as a daemon, so has a 5++ in addition to the above. Your move. -Pax PS: If looking for a more all-comers list, destructor on the reaver change to carapace Vulcan mega blaster, Titan CCW, and Laser blaster. Vulcan has 15 S6 shots for AA, even if it must snap. Laser blaster is 3 D templates and titan CCW is a D melee weapon. Oh, and I'd swtich Daemon of Tzeentch for Daemon of Khorne, as that one adds +d3 attacks on the charge, which would matter with the D melee weapon. That would pretty much cover all my bases in one model, even if a bit sub-par in the AA end. Cultist units go in reserves, with solo sorcerer near the reaver and out of enemy TLOS. I might not even bother rolling psychic powers. I fight you to a draw with ease, at the very least. You only have two squads of troops, and I have... well, anything at all to kill them with. Every weakness you've brought up for my list, yours has tenfold, and you have absolutely zero solutions to anything that has anything resembling a plan against you. Air Force? Autolose. FMC list? Autolose. Melee combat with anything vaguely decent? You basically have no units left for the rest of the game. Drop Pods? Probably kill you before you get to do anything to them. (Vulkhan + 2x10 Sternguard with Combi-meltas fits pretty easily, and still leaves room for whatever other 1000pts of toys they want for dealing with other armies.) If looking for a more all-comers list, destructor on the reaver change to carapace Vulcan mega blaster, Titan CCW, and Laser blaster. Vulcan has 15 S6 shots for AA, even if it must snap. Laser blaster is 3 D templates and titan CCW is a D melee weapon. Oh, and I'd swtich Daemon of Tzeentch for Daemon of Khorne, as that one adds +d3 attacks on the charge, which would matter with the D melee weapon. That would pretty much cover all my bases in one model, even if a bit sub-par in the AA end. Cultist units go in reserves, with solo sorcerer near the reaver and out of enemy TLOS. I might not even bother rolling psychic powers. Your AA there is basically meaninglessly terrible- you'll average just over two hits and do maybe one wound to a normal FMC. You seriously thing they care about that at all? The Str D melee weapon means you have a fighting chance against some things, but your low WS and I values mean that you're unlikely to actually land enough hits to matter. Going down to only three Str D shots means that I can probably beat you in a shooting war- you're tougher, obviously, but I have five Void Shields to your four (and that also means it is functionally impossible for you to kill me on turn 1), and with the Sabres I can drop ~2 Void Shields off of you before I begin firing with my Titan. I'm likely to go first (by virtue of rolling high or by Coteaz) and my blasts shouldn't ever miss you, barring unbelievably-bad luck, as I have Prescience while you do not. In any situation where I go first, I should win handily- I drop two Shields from you, fire and hit with four Turbo-Lasers, and get two rolls on the Destroyer table; you get to go, and firing everything at me you can still really only hope to get super-lucky with your Bolter and get a crapload of sixes to drop my Shield before the blasts come down- failing something unusual there, you won't kill me and will get back ~1 Void Shield. On my turn 1-2 Vendettas come in and with it or them plus my Sabres, I can easily drop any Shields you might have gotten back and then hit you with a full volley from my Destroyers again, which should finish you off pretty easily. Even if I get critically unlucky there, remember I still have two Vendettas, two Sabres, and a team of Meltavets that can all try and ping off your last couple of HP and wiping out your minimal troops should be little trouble at all. If we both blast each other's troops away, I still am easily in the lead, as I will have 6 bonus VP from Through Attrition, Victory, whereas you will only have three- that means you need to score every single other secondary objective just to tie with me. I am fully aware of what the Reaver titan is capable of. In Apocalypse games it's pretty stupid, but in 1750 you don't have enough points left to properly support it- it's the same problem that the Revenant runs into against the Warhound. The Revenant is, cost aside, easily the better unit, but that 200pt price difference changes a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Stuff, mostly serious replies to my mostly non-serious post.... My point was more that the FW rules are broken when combined with the escalation rules.... In terms of serious responses to your list, the big issues I keep running into are these: -I need more FOC slots to create a proper MSU list to counter your army. This is because you've got apocalypse [not escalation, apocalypse] units at a point level where the FOC limitations impair my army to a very great degree. At 2k, I could do it with a double FOC, but this also breaks the rules that you've constucted you list within. -My armies are traditionally SM/IG/INQ and my apoc super heavy would be a warhound. I can't really use these for the list creation, given that it doesn't really prove much if I build a near identical army. I also can't build one of the already mentioned lists, as that defeats the point. -Escalation is really not designed for use with the FW rules (in particular, the non-LoW FW rules). It's very apparent when the reading the books and trying to balance a match-up. I don't like facing a revenant, but that thing is expensive enough where your army should be impaired by the cost. The warhound, on the other hand, is very inexpensive by escalation super heavy standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 I need more FOC slots to create a proper MSU list to counter your army. This is because you've got apocalypse [not escalation, apocalypse] units at a point level where the FOC limitations impair my army to a very great degree. At 2k, I could do it with a double FOC, but this also breaks the rules that you've constucted you list within. Look, I don't like Forge World, either, but there are a lot of tournaments around the area that are allowing it. Heck, even Guardian Cup seems to be allowing the Forge World Escalation units (though not other FW units). You said my list wasn't very good and that you could write something to beat it (and other Escalation lists) pretty easily, but suddenly now you're complaining about how hard that is? Sorry, dude, no sympathy there. And double Force Org is even less common than FW, so I don't know why you think one is totally kosher and the other is verboten. My armies are traditionally SM/IG/INQ and my apoc super heavy would be a warhound. I can't really use these for the list creation, given that it doesn't really prove much if I build a near identical army. I also can't build one of the already mentioned lists, as that defeats the point. There are a bunch of other superheavies that SM and IG get... they just aren't nearly as good as the Warhound. Which was my point. If the actual models you own are the problem, I would have no problem accepting a list with proxies in it for purposes of the exercise. Escalation is really not designed for use with the FW rules (in particular, the non-LoW FW rules). It's very apparent when the reading the books and trying to balance a match-up. I don't like facing a revenant, but that thing is expensive enough where your army should be impaired by the cost. The warhound, on the other hand, is very inexpensive by escalation super heavy standards. Again, I really can't give you much sympathy here. You straight-up said my list was weak, but now you are saying you're at a loss to come up with a good counter? Escalation wasn't "designed for" anything, it is a horribly-unbalanced mess of rules that were never thought through. However, since you are bemoaning the inclusion of Forge World so heavily and seem to think it is the one and only problem with Escalation, I am willing to offer you an alternate take on things: write a 1750 list with all codices, supplements, and dataslates available (but no FW) WITHOUT using any Lords of War or the Aquilla Stronghold, and make it one that stands against the entire field of units available (including Lords of War, and most noteably the Transcendent C'tan, Revenant, Stormsword, and Stompa.) If Escalation is properly balanced, said list should be able to offer an effective challenge to all (or at least most) of these lists as well as the relevant counter-lists that appear to them in Escalation (Daemonic FMCs, Necron Air, Drop Marines.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 You said my list wasn't very good and that you could write something to beat it (and other Escalation lists) pretty easily, but suddenly now you're complaining about how hard that is? Sorry, dude, no sympathy there. .... Again, I really can't give you much sympathy here. You straight-up said my list was weak That is not exactly what I recall. I said that your list didn't capitalize on the SH as much as it could. I do think that with full FW access, the list could be stronger. I do think the list is over-reliant on the warhound. I do think the list is weak, in the respect that it's a weak collection of strong units, as opposed to a strong collection of strong units. I will also note that I was not aware that the sabre platforms were/are interceptor weapons. I don't think the changes my stance, but worth mentioning In the counter lists, you said not to build a list with a warhound. My point above is about using a warhound in conjunction with the rest of the list. To not use it counters the evaluation above. You also listed a few more restrictions like a pod list, a flyer list, a daemon FMC list, the apoc c'tan, kustom stompa, revenant and vect/imotek. I'm trying to work within these confines at 1750pts. I can do it, but it won't be timely. And again, probably the biggest issue isn't that I can't build a list that would probably win, it's that I can't build a list that I know would win because I mostly play 40k with my IG/SM/INQ - the very army I'm not supposed to use. I don't have a ton of current 6th ed. experience with the other armies. Also, as per the escalation rules, on a 4+ rolled at the start of the game, we use one of the escalation missions and not a regular mission - I have no experience with the escalation missions, but this is part of the escalation rules. Something worthy of note, as I don't think we've mentioned it. Oh, and at GG league, the double FOC is kosher at 2k or higher, has been for some time. We don't always do 2k, but it's been there when it was. I don't do tournaments usually, so this my main 40k outlet. Have not had the reported issues with cheese due to double FOCs. Often double FOC prevents the player from affording a full allied detachment due to point constraints. If anything, I've heard more complaints about the use allies than the use of the double FOC. Really, though, I think the double FOC should be legal at lower point levels, assuming they don't ditch the FOC in the near future. I find 40k games pretty balanced just with point costs and only certain units being scoring. Being able to take multiple LoWs, within normal points limitations, would probably not unbalance the game, if anything, would balance the more spendy ones better against the less spendy ones. PS: I'll get you the list. I've been in a funk where I don't want to write lists lately. I keep bringing really sub-par lists to GG too because I scramble at the last minute to put them together. Part of it is that army builder is not updating the DA section of their 40k list builder, so I've been annoyed with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Not sure at all on this one, but here: C:Daemons HQ: Hearld of Tzeentch (Portalglyph) Troops: Horrors (10) Troops: Horrors (10) LoW: Daemon Lord – Aetaos’rau’keres, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch Allied DE (desperate) HQ Vect Troops Wyches (5, haywire) -Raider (Lance) Heavy Reaper Total: 1749pts List is very iffy, plus it uses the daemon storm table. I have two different units that can create troops, hence my light scoring unit inclusion. Much of the army hinges around going first and around that daemon lord, so I had to include vect as I can't ally with imotek. List is pretty reliant on haywire weapons to solve my vehicle problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 That is not exactly what I recall. I said that your list didn't capitalize on the SH as much as it could. I do think that with full FW access, the list could be stronger. I do think the list is over-reliant on the warhound. I do think the list is weak, in the respect that it's a weak collection of strong units, as opposed to a strong collection of strong units. And yet you seem to be having a problem coming up with anything to stop it, which is why I don't really give any kind of credence to your claims. So far, you have told me that "If you played with more sixteen-inch wide blocking terrain your army wouldn't be so good" (okay sure but normal tables don't have that), that your FMC list could possibly maybe beat it (except that I have tons of Skyfire and your army has zero scoring), and then basically been at a loss to come up with anything else. Show me this strong collection of strong units- so far all you've really done is complain about how Forge World is broken. In the counter lists, you said not to build a list with a warhound. My point above is about using a warhound in conjunction with the rest of the list. To not use it counters the evaluation above. You also listed a few more restrictions like a pod list, a flyer list, a daemon FMC list, the apoc c'tan, kustom stompa, revenant and vect/imotek. I'm trying to work within these confines at 1750pts. I can do it, but it won't be timely. Sure, because your contention was that my list was bad and that the Warhound wasn't nearly as good as I made it out to be. My central point is that the Warhound, along with other units depending on what particular set of rules you use, turns Escalation into a non-game. Those other things aren't "restrictions," those are the lists you're likely to deal with. I could easily write a list that beats my army and my army alone- that's a trivial exercise for any army you can name. But if you think my army is weak, you should be able to beat my army and other armies as well. And again, probably the biggest issue isn't that I can't build a list that would probably win, it's that I can't build a list that I know would win because I mostly play 40k with my IG/SM/INQ - the very army I'm not supposed to use. I don't have a ton of current 6th ed. experience with the other armies. I never said you can't use SM/INQ/IG- you put that restriction on yourself. There are other superheavies besides the Warhound for those factions, you know. Do you think you have a better Warhound list than I do? You certainly have made no allusions to it. Also, as per the escalation rules, on a 4+ rolled at the start of the game, we use one of the escalation missions and not a regular mission - I have no experience with the escalation missions, but this is part of the escalation rules. Something worthy of note, as I don't think we've mentioned it. Sorry, no dice. The Altar of War missions aren't used by any tournament anywhere, for one, and for two even armies like Farsight Enclaves have AoW missions available to them. Many of them use special deployments, Force Org Charts, and other stuff that isn't compatible with playing a pickup game between two people, so we can utterly discount them. Oh, and at GG league, the double FOC is kosher at 2k or higher, has been for some time. We don't always do 2k, but it's been there when it was. I don't do tournaments usually, so this my main 40k outlet. Have not had the reported issues with cheese due to double FOCs. Often double FOC prevents the player from affording a full allied detachment due to point constraints. If anything, I've heard more complaints about the use allies than the use of the double FOC. People will complain about anything. I still hold that double-FoC is basically just a moneysink that makes the game less interesting. None of the tournaments I have seen or been to use it, so I would have to say the league is rather unique in that respect. C:Daemons HQ: Hearld of Tzeentch (Portalglyph) Troops: Horrors (10) Troops: Horrors (10) LoW: Daemon Lord – Aetaos’rau’keres, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch Allied DE (desperate) HQ Vect Troops Wyches (5, haywire) -Raider (Lance) Heavy Reaper Total: 1749pts List is very iffy, plus it uses the daemon storm table. I have two different units that can create troops, hence my light scoring unit inclusion. Much of the army hinges around going first and around that daemon lord, so I had to include vect as I can't ally with imotek. List is pretty reliant on haywire weapons to solve my vehicle problems. I would have to call this pretty dicey- your odds of going first are only slightly better than mine overall (since Coteaz shuts down a lot of Vect's bonus, and if you start out on top I still get two tries.) I have enough units to force Grounding tests that it should be a very rare thing for him to stay in the air even when you go first- I can reliably force 6-8 tests on your in a single turn if I don't blob up (which I wouldn't want to) and once you're on the ground I should pretty much always kill you in a single volley of Destroyer shots (I average doing twelve wounds, you only have nine, and any six should finish the job immediately.) And, of course, you have the usual problem of only two scoring units, although the Portalglyph mitigates that somewhat. It is technically possible for you to kill me with your shooting, although extremely unlikely- you need to drop five Shields and then do 9 HP, and you have 6+2d3 Haywire and one Lance to do so at best, so you need to get really lucky with the penetrations for that to happen. Also your list has exactly the same problem against a Revenant (though they won't have quite as many ways to force Grounding), has absolutely no way of dealing with an enemy FMC army (they just avoid you and prey on your troops) or Necron Air, ditto for the C'tan list (wounding on 6s with your blast and 5s with your normal attacks, plus he has a Destroyer weapon or two and you do not), plays for the draw against Drop Melta (they kill your troops and call it a day), ditto against enemy FMCs (Puppet Master will make you blast your own army to pieces in short order), and so on. I don't think you can say that this list has any real game against most strong Escalation armies. 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Aventine Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Look, I don't like Forge World, either, but there are a lot of tournaments around the area that are allowing it. Heck, even Guardian Cup seems to be allowing the Forge World Escalation units (though not other FW units). No FW rules for the Cup, only the units in the Escalation book. "Non-Escalation FW" was the term used anything outside the Escalation book, as some Escalation units are exclusively FW models, but are still allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Huh. I had asked about it on the page, but not gotten any response yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Here, don't really play marines, but I think I could get this one to work. Really depends on the void shields, your interceptor weapons, and if I go first or second. List is that all-comer's approach, so not just thinking about your army with this one. Black Templars HQ SM Captain (bike, warlord, combi-plasma, Lightning Claw, MB) Elites Assault Centurions (3, all TL MG) Elites Dreadnought (Dual TL AC) Elites Dreadnought (Dual TL AC) Troops Crusader Squad (10, 5x crusaders w/Gravgun+MM, 4x neophytes, 1x sword brother w/fist+combi-grav) -Pod Troops Crusader Squad (10, 5x crusaders w/Gravgun+MM, 4x neophytes, 1x sword brother w/fist+combi-grav) -Pod Troops Bike Squad (5, 3x Bikers w/2x plasma guns, 1x attack bike w/MM, 1x biker sarge w/MB+combi-plasma) Troops Bike Squad (5, 3x Bikers w/2x plasma guns, 1x attack bike w/MM, 1x biker sarge w/MB+combi-plasma) Heavy SR (Las+MM) Heavy Whirlwind Heavy Whirlwind Total: 1741pts Rolling escalation warlord traits for my captain. No SH, so +1 sieze. Assault centurions strike in intiative order, so they do present a legitimate threat with bascially FC chainfists in assault. Grav weapons aren't for your list, they are for C'tan and similar units, where they wound on 3s (until FAQed). Plas/autocannons are for shutting down void shields and flyers in your list. I've got no interceptor weapons, which may hurt me, but I can probably live with it. Idea is to knock out your AoE void shields turn1, likely with a sacrifical rifle dread. I can then hammer your IG with whirlwinds. Yeah, could go with the thundefire, which is often better in many respects, but I wanted the two pinning checks and to be able to deny 5+ armor and cover in the same shot. Shouldn't be too hard to hide most of the army turn 1, given "normal" amounts of even shorter TLOS blocking terrain. Pods might be an issue, perhaps swap with rhionos....I'd certainly need more than one game's worth of practice to get it all working (wouldn't need to be all games against you, just would need more practice with the army). Templars traits are very nice for all-comers. Crusader rule adds to intiative in sweeps, so it can help the marines sweep eldar type units, instead of letting them get away. Also helps with running. Adamtium will is again, one of those general purpose powers which just slightly buffs all my units against psyker heavy opponents. My main concern is that most of my high AV solutions are arriving turn 2+ as/with the SR, so likely turn 1 will have lots of hiding for most units. PS: I really don't get all the comments about what a tournament would allow. I don't play in those, and I'm not debating tournament rules or formats. The Escalation book says that if either player wants to use their missions, roll a dice, on a 4+ we do one of those instead. This is not an optional portion of the escalation supplement, if using escalation, you'd have to house rule not using their missions (or players would both have to not want to use their missions). Obviously, a TO could say otherwise, but again, I don't care about their rules as I'm not in a tournament. This is just you and me. I also don't plan on using the TO solution to SH walkers going through terrain. Book is clear, so until FAQed, they move best d6" through terrain. PPS: in that Tzeentch list, that LoW is a level 4 psyker with access to 2x powers from any one BRB power list. So, he can go biomancy if I want, which could make him a good deal harder to kill. Telekinesis has a few that would function against enemy flyers. Though, I was more thinking vector strikes when thinking of flyer solutions, he is S8. Also, remember that as a FGC, he get's FNP in addition to the listed. So, base defenses, he's T8 with 9 wounds, a 3++ which re-rolls 1s due to being a daemon of Tzeentch, then a 5+ FNP, and if airborne, he's got hard to hit. For psychic defenses, he's level 4, and any successful denys can be re-directed back on the caster with an additional roll of 4+. Oh, and last, should I get a turn at all, I get to debate if I should go to fly mode or use his staff. It's an apoc barrage 6+D3, which has haywire, poisoned 4+ and is AP3, so with decent rolling, I could probably melt the void shields and, with good rolling, deal pretty significant damage to the warhound. Turn 1, if I get one, I should have the portalglyph placed out of TLOS (I think it's flat, so should be easy to hide, even with scatter). That one can spawn when it arrives, so between it, starting troops and the daemon lord, I'll have 4 units of horrors on the table. Each turn they survive is more scoring troops on the table. Even if doing a normal mission, this could present a problem. Oh, don't forget the Chaos storm table too. Could be bad or good. I think it fits the all-comers approach very nicely, though it could really impair my army as well as yours. The DE inclusion is iffy. Vect's 4+ twice isn't horrible. If you go first, I roll it twice, which certainly isn't impossible. If I go first, then you get two tries to roll 6s. Otherwise, he's got some neat weapons and such, but will probably die to a multi-laser....Temptingly, is that if I don't take a LoW, vect's roll is 3+ because he get's +1 to sieze for not having a LoW. Reaper should be a decent all-comers for DE. Haywire large blast with both pinning and concussive should be helpful against some enemies. Other fire mode can wound enemy MCs and GCs, inflicting ID on 5+ on the wound table (ID removes D3 wounds against GCs), or does D3 haywire on that 5+, or just 1 haywire normally. Wyches and raider probably won't be useful, but could be. They can be tough enemies should they make assault, even in low numbers. So, with perfect rolling and turn 1, I can land 12 haywire hits on the warhound turn 1. This is just two units, the reaper and the LoW. Even with void shields, that is a problematic number. It would melt the void shields, and at least knock the warhound to a few hull points. I still can fire a lance weapon and any psychic powers I have at that warhound, possibly destroying it turn 1. Likewise, with ideal rolling, you should be able to wipe my entire army turn 1, these are just those sort of lists. -Pax EDIT: In terms of modifying your list, I'd probably go the strike/interceptor squad route, setting up a defense rather than an offense. Should make the army more enjoyable to play against, even if not very easy to destroy. I also might get some DA allies to give that warhound a more static 4++ (as opposed to hoping you roll it in divination). Would also be smart to coat that warhound in a psychic hood. I'd also consider the Fortress of Redemption, as vehicle TLOS is measured from the barrels of the weapons, so you could probably get both a cover save and still have full TLOS with the weapons from behind that giant tower. Could bolster said cover save with a DA darkshroud too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Black Templars HQ SM Captain (bike, warlord, combi-plasma, Lightning Claw, MB) Elites Assault Centurions (3, all TL MG) Elites Dreadnought (Dual TL AC) Elites Dreadnought (Dual TL AC) Troops Crusader Squad (10, 5x crusaders w/Gravgun+MM, 4x neophytes, 1x sword brother w/fist+combi-grav) -Pod Troops Crusader Squad (10, 5x crusaders w/Gravgun+MM, 4x neophytes, 1x sword brother w/fist+combi-grav) -Pod Troops Bike Squad (5, 3x Bikers w/2x plasma guns, 1x attack bike w/MM, 1x biker sarge w/MB+combi-plasma) Troops Bike Squad (5, 3x Bikers w/2x plasma guns, 1x attack bike w/MM, 1x biker sarge w/MB+combi-plasma) Heavy SR (Las+MM) Heavy Whirlwind Heavy Whirlwind So in terms of my list, you have... almost nothing that can hurt my titan. On turn 1, I can shoot at your two Bike squads and from there on out I am virtually assured you will never be able to do any meaningful damage to it. If you place your Drop Pod aggressively, it eats shots from Coteaz and probably loses any relevant members; otherwise, it's just a random scoring unit (and ditto for the second one once it comes in.) The Stormraven I assume is carrying your Centurions, but you've got to deal with four pretty good Interceptor guns plus my Vendettas, so chances are I can bring it crashing down before you can lay an assault on me. (The S10 crash hit will probably kill the guys inside, but if not I can always throw something else at them.) With the Bikes dead on the first turn, chances are you have only the Dreads still able to break down Void Shields, and those will probably be silenced in short order; alternately, I can aim for your Whirlwinds, if I think those are going to be an easier route, but likely I can just rely on the VSG to protect my guys for the early turns. (Both your Dreads together only average slightly over two Shields dropped.) So you can't really kill my titan, you can't really kill my troops, and you don't have Combat Squads to try and play the scoring game. I don't think it would fair much better against any of the other armies. The Revenant will pretty easily use its 36" move to just avoid your Centurions, and Wave Serpents are immune to most all of your guns. A Transcendent C'tan can be hurt by the Grav, certainly (I doubt they will FAQ that one, though it's possible), but with only four Grav total, none of them Relentless, and two of those being Combis, I don't think you're going to bring him down anytime soon. He'll easily annihilate your Cents should they get into combat (hits on 3s, kills on 2s, strikes first) and he can basically wander about your deployment zone killing everything you have with impunity and you have no good way to stop him or to hurt his supporting units (Annihilation Barges, etc.) You have no guns to stop a FMC list at all, so that will pretty much annihilate you. Drop Pods likewise you have no real solution to- they will come down hard and probably cripple you and you don't have nearly enough firepower to push back against them. In short, I don't think you can realistically expect to beat any of the lists I mentioned, much less hold a 50+% ratio against all of them. PS: I really don't get all the comments about what a tournament would allow. I don't play in those, and I'm not debating tournament rules or formats. The Escalation book says that if either player wants to use their missions, roll a dice, on a 4+ we do one of those instead. This is not an optional portion of the escalation supplement, if using escalation, you'd have to house rule not using their missions (or players would both have to not want to use their missions). Obviously, a TO could say otherwise, but again, I don't care about their rules as I'm not in a tournament. This is just you and me. Tournaments are most typically where list competitivity and balance come into play, and they are most often representative of what the player base in general is accepting of. You can't really design an army in advance for the Altar of War missions because many of them require you to use a nonstandard army composition. However, if you really wanted to go that route, remember that I get the option of using the AoW stuff as well if I win the roll-off, and your army is incredibly poorly-suited to winning a Stronghold Assault mission. I also don't plan on using the TO solution to SH walkers going through terrain. Book is clear, so until FAQed, they move best d6" through terrain. When the RAW are clearly absurd- such as one type of superheavy vehicle being completely unaffected by terrain and another type slowing to a crawl in it- I think there's call to look for alternate interpretations. Do you allow Wraithguard to shoot? RAW they can't, as you cannot draw LOS from their eyes (they don't have eyes.) Do you allow weapons without LOS to allocate wounds (such as your Whirlwinds)? RAW, they cannot, as even weapons that don't need LOS will immediately have their wound pool discarded as soon as no enemy models are visible. There are lots of places where the game's rules break down, because GW is bad at writing rules. in that Tzeentch list, that LoW is a level 4 psyker with access to 2x powers from any one BRB power list. So, he can go biomancy if I want, which could make him a good deal harder to kill. Telekinesis has a few that would function against enemy flyers. Though, I was more thinking vector strikes when thinking of flyer solutions, he is S8. Also, remember that as a FGC, he get's FNP in addition to the listed. So, base defenses, he's T8 with 9 wounds, a 3++ which re-rolls 1s due to being a daemon of Tzeentch, then a 5+ FNP, and if airborne, he's got hard to hit. For psychic defenses, he's level 4, and any successful denys can be re-directed back on the caster with an additional roll of 4+. I don't care about any of that, I'm just going to hit him with Destroyer weapons, which ignore all of your defenses. You don't need to lecture me about the abilities of the models you mention, I know what they all do. I didn't bring up scoring as a major issue because I realized that the big guy could spawn an extra squad of Horrors every turn in addition to your Portalglyph. I didn't talk about using "normal" guns to kill him because of his 3++/reroll/FNP. Oh, and last, should I get a turn at all, I get to debate if I should go to fly mode or use his staff. It's an apoc barrage 6+D3, which has haywire, poisoned 4+ and is AP3, so with decent rolling, I could probably melt the void shields and, with good rolling, deal pretty significant damage to the warhound. Yes, I talked about that- unless you fail that leadership test (which is a not-unreasonable chance, but won't usually happen) you should be able to drop my Void Shields pretty easily, and in theory that + the other Haywire could potentially kill my titan. It's not very likely, though, and realistically I am likely to vaporize you on my turn. (You should, on average, drop all five of my Shields and do 3HP to me between all your shooting, barring a sequence of lucky pens.) Likewise, with ideal rolling, you should be able to wipe my entire army turn 1, these are just those sort of lists. Right, but if we look at the averages, rather than the extreme outliers, usually I will kill your big critter and you will fail to kill my Warhound. It's not just about what can happen, it's about what is likely to happen. EDIT: In terms of modifying your list, I'd probably go the strike/interceptor squad route, setting up a defense rather than an offense. Should make the army more enjoyable to play against, even if not very easy to destroy. I also might get some DA allies to give that warhound a more static 4++ (as opposed to hoping you roll it in divination). Would also be smart to coat that warhound in a psychic hood. I'd also consider the Fortress of Redemption, as vehicle TLOS is measured from the barrels of the weapons, so you could probably get both a cover save and still have full TLOS with the weapons from behind that giant tower. Could bolster said cover save with a DA darkshroud too. I had looked at including DA, but in 1750 there simply isn't enough points for it; Coteaz's ability to shut down Seize and Deep Strike as well as provide Divination support is much more valuable. Likewise, a Psychic Hood would be handy, but there simply was no way to fit it in. Really I'd rather run a Rune Priest for his 4+ shutdown roll, but a Hood would be a decent second choice. Hiding the Warhound behind a G.I. JOE PLAYSET would actually be pretty hilarious, but that 220pt tax (and inability to take a VSG) is a pretty significant downside. VSG is what keeps me alive against enemy Destroyer weapons, losing that means I probably die to the other guy's first turn if they have a Revenant/Warhound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 1 So in terms of my list, you have... almost nothing that can hurt my titan. On turn 1, I can shoot at your two Bike squads and from there on out I am virtually assured you will never be able to do any meaningful damage to it. If you place your Drop Pod aggressively, it eats shots from Coteaz and probably loses any relevant members; otherwise, it's just a random scoring unit (and ditto for the second one once it comes in.) The Stormraven I assume is carrying your Centurions, but you've got to deal with four pretty good Interceptor guns plus my Vendettas, so chances are I can bring it crashing down before you can lay an assault on me. (The S10 crash hit will probably kill the guys inside, but if not I can always throw something else at them.) 2 With the Bikes dead on the first turn, chances are you have only the Dreads still able to break down Void Shields, and those will probably be silenced in short order; alternately, I can aim for your Whirlwinds, if I think those are going to be an easier route, but likely I can just rely on the VSG to protect my guys for the early turns. (Both your Dreads together only average slightly over two Shields dropped.) So you can't really kill my titan, you can't really kill my troops, and you don't have Combat Squads to try and play the scoring game. 3 I don't think it would fair much better against any of the other armies. The Revenant will pretty easily use its 36" move to just avoid your Centurions, and Wave Serpents are immune to most all of your guns. A Transcendent C'tan can be hurt by the Grav, certainly (I doubt they will FAQ that one, though it's possible), but with only four Grav total, none of them Relentless, and two of those being Combis, I don't think you're going to bring him down anytime soon. He'll easily annihilate your Cents should they get into combat (hits on 3s, kills on 2s, strikes first) and he can basically wander about your deployment zone killing everything you have with impunity and you have no good way to stop him or to hurt his supporting units (Annihilation Barges, etc.) You have no guns to stop a FMC list at all, so that will pretty much annihilate you. Drop Pods likewise you have no real solution to- they will come down hard and probably cripple you and you don't have nearly enough firepower to push back against them. 4 Tournaments are most typically where list competitivity and balance come into play, and they are most often representative of what the player base in general is accepting of. You can't really design an army in advance for the Altar of War missions because many of them require you to use a nonstandard army composition. However, if you really wanted to go that route, remember that I get the option of using the AoW stuff as well if I win the roll-off, and your army is incredibly poorly-suited to winning a Stronghold Assault mission. 5 When the RAW are clearly absurd- such as one type of superheavy vehicle being completely unaffected by terrain and another type slowing to a crawl in it- I think there's call to look for alternate interpretations. Do you allow Wraithguard to shoot? RAW they can't, as you cannot draw LOS from their eyes (they don't have eyes.) Do you allow weapons without LOS to allocate wounds (such as your Whirlwinds)? RAW, they cannot, as even weapons that don't need LOS will immediately have their wound pool discarded as soon as no enemy models are visible. There are lots of places where the game's rules break down, because GW is bad at writing rules. 6 I don't care about any of that, I'm just going to hit him with Destroyer weapons, which ignore all of your defenses. You don't need to lecture me about the abilities of the models you mention, I know what they all do. I didn't bring up scoring as a major issue because I realized that the big guy could spawn an extra squad of Horrors every turn in addition to your Portalglyph. I didn't talk about using "normal" guns to kill him because of his 3++/reroll/FNP. 7 Right, but if we look at the averages, rather than the extreme outliers, usually I will kill your big critter and you will fail to kill my Warhound. It's not just about what can happen, it's about what is likely to happen. 8 I had looked at including DA, but in 1750 there simply isn't enough points for it; Coteaz's ability to shut down Seize and Deep Strike as well as provide Divination support is much more valuable. Likewise, a Psychic Hood would be handy, but there simply was no way to fit it in. Really I'd rather run a Rune Priest for his 4+ shutdown roll, but a Hood would be a decent second choice. Hiding the Warhound behind a G.I. JOE PLAYSET would actually be pretty hilarious, but that 220pt tax (and inability to take a VSG) is a pretty significant downside. VSG is what keeps me alive against enemy Destroyer weapons, losing that means I probably die to the other guy's first turn if they have a Revenant/Warhound. Lot of numbers this time. 1 You keep acting like you get first turn no matter what. Even with coteaz, we still roll off for turn normally. Coteaz allows a very slim increase in going first, which is a very similar slim increase to my +1 to the roll for being without a super heavy. I need a video battle report of this thing. Perhaps its in the link. I just can't picture your army having clear TLOS to things the way you talk about them going down. 2 Clearly, we haven't seen the same results with vendettas. I find they typically arrive, do their one amazing shot, then have to evade to some enemy weapon and then their shooting is rather unimpressive the rest of the game until they eventually get destroyed. As for the SR, I've found them to be flying beasts, able to move, shoot at both flyers, and likely destroy or force both to evade. Though I did forget the no armor saves thing about exploding flyers. That is certainly an issue. I may have failed to point it out, the plan is not to engage the warhound turn 1. We intend to hide from it for turn 1 and maybe all of the turns. The autocannons just need to destoy two of the void shields, as the goal is to hit the IG infantry with whirlwinds turn 1, so the dreads are just their to knock out two levels of void shields. In your army, the grav guns are not for the titan at all, they are for the sabre platforms, as those are T7 with 3+ armor saves. We can land turn 1. The grav guns also have 18" of range, so they don't have to land within coteaz's ability's range. I can land the 1 pod 12-18" away, disembark a squad of 10 guys and be completely immune to coteaz, while shrugging off most of the hits that are dealth with 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons by IG. 6 wounds max? I still get to shoot and kill a sabre platform at least. The warhound is not scoring, requires TLOS to fire, and can't fire indirectly, plus it really isn't very scary in assault. The closer it gets, the better my army can do against it. 3 I keep wondering who these opponents of yours are. The trancendant C'tan has a meager 6 wounds. It can't fly and has a 3+/4++ with FNP. Yeah, you can hide it easy, but it's really a glass hammer (maybe tempered glass, but for the points, it's made of really expensive glass). As for options to destroy one, every unit in the army is able to damage it. Odds aren't great with anything, but it's only 6 wounds. The revenant is certainly a challenge. IF the centurions got in range, they could assault it, but I agree, such results are doubtful. Thing is, the revenant is really just a bunch of void shields in defensive value. At 900pts, again, glass hammer. Everything in the army can damage it at range and in assault (well, all units that can assault). In both cases, my opponent's support army is going to be the big challenge. The titan is certainly challenging, but the support elements are what will win/lose battle. 4 No, totally disagree here. Tournaments are where balance is talked about, but rarely employed. 5 Actually, I think a big giant walker being a bit concerned about tripping, so having him slow down when climbing over uncertain terrain is a very reasonable rule. I think the other super heavies being immune to dangerous terrain doesn't make any fluffy sense. I don't think skilled rider making bikes immune to dangerous makes any fluffy sense either. I think that RAW, is how you normally argue 40k, and I don't see why ditching it makes a ton of sense just because logic disagrees with 40k rules. As for line of sight without eyes: If you look in the last half of the last paragraph for the line of sight rules, it says the "model's eye view" is done by the playering determinting what can be seen when looking from behind the model's head. The model's eye is determined by it's head, or so it seems to say. Does the model in confusion have both no eyes and no head? The Whirlwind is a barrage weapon, so TLOS resolves from the center hole. 6 So all the comments about forcing grounding tests was just to force grounding tests and no intention of trying to wound it? Okay. Still, Seems iffy. They both are big models, but I've certainly seen games where FMCs passed well over 4 grounding tests in a single shooting phase. Main issue I'm seeing is if the IG aren't in range to fire at the flyer, say because of night fighting conditions. Some would be in range, but if trying to force the 4 grounding tests, all 4 must be in range. I do have a level 1 psyker (herald) with divination access, so re-rolling all the haywire stuff isn't impossible. Odds to fail the test, by the way, are 8.33%, given that's he's leadership 10. I also note that if I go first, you've got 6+ to go first with a single re-roll. Those odds are not very impressive. If you go first, my roll is 4+ with forced re-roll, which are still better than your odds at siezing - you seem to have a lot of stock in automatically going first, but I very much don't follow the reasoning. 7 Very much depends on the psychic powers I roll and how well my other shooting goes. The warp storm table could also have a pretty large impact on this game, especially given how many units in your army. Game is very all or nothing on both sides. 8 Been wondering this one. Why not put it in reserves? That's how I'd run it in apocalypse. I mean, you do lose a turn of shooting, but you also lose a turn of being shot at. Most interceptor weapons will be largely ineffective against a warhound's front, so seems like a decent plan. Plus, turn 1 DS opponents are stuck with half their stuff lacking the target on the table that they need to destroy. At 1750, basically, you have 1k to thin the opponent's numbers for a turn or two while the warhound does a final systems check. Seems like reserves are probably a more reliable defense than that void shield generator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 You keep acting like you get first turn no matter what. Even with coteaz, we still roll off for turn normally. Coteaz allows a very slim increase in going first, which is a very similar slim increase to my +1 to the roll for being without a super heavy. I need a video battle report of this thing. Perhaps its in the link. I just can't picture your army having clear TLOS to things the way you talk about them going down. It doesn't matter whether I go first or not- you aren't White Scars, so you won't be able to apply any firepower to my titan round 1. (You have a pretty fair chance of dropping my VSG's Shields so as to fire at my infantry blob, but that's certainly no guarantee.) Everything I said in that paragraph applies equally to going first or second against you- indeed, going second arguably makes it easier, since your Drop Pod is already on the table so I can aim at that squad. You seem really optimistic about LOS-blocking. You seriously think you're going to hide two Bike squads, two Whirlwinds, and two Dreadnoughts all completely out of LOS of my army, even with a 12" move on my most relevant firepower? I rather doubt that. Even if you do, all that means is that you, in turn, have no firepower on turn 1, either... because if I can't see you with a 12" move, there's no way you're going to be able to see me with a 6" one. So I guess you bring in one Drop Pod, try to Grav Gun my VSG down, and fire Whirlwinds ineffectually at my Shields? Clearly, we haven't seen the same results with vendettas. I find they typically arrive, do their one amazing shot, then have to evade to some enemy weapon and then their shooting is rather unimpressive the rest of the game until they eventually get destroyed. As for the SR, I've found them to be flying beasts, able to move, shoot at both flyers, and likely destroy or force both to evade. What, exactly, are you shooting at my Vendetta to force it to Evade? Your Stormraven is likely going to be doing too much duck-and-weave of its own to ever be much of a threat to me (I have four Interceptor guns, remember). Your pair of Dreadnoughts will likely be my first target for the Vendettas if your Stormraven isn't on the table (and are also likely to take early shots from my titan, as they are one of your few ways to drop Void Shields effectively), so I don't think they will last long and may not get any shots at my Vendetta at all. You admitted yourself that your list has pretty weak AA firepower, so I'm not sure how this is suddenly turning into "but I'll be forcing two tough flyers to Evade every turn." I may have failed to point it out, the plan is not to engage the warhound turn 1. We intend to hide from it for turn 1 and maybe all of the turns. The autocannons just need to destoy two of the void shields, as the goal is to hit the IG infantry with whirlwinds turn 1, so the dreads are just their to knock out two levels of void shields. If your Dreadnoughts are in LOS of my infantry, they damn well are in LOS of my Warhound. Pew pew, dead Dreadnoughts. (Also, remember the VSG has three shields, not two, and it's a pretty unlikely even that your Dreads can drop all three of them by themselves.) In your army, the grav guns are not for the titan at all, they are for the sabre platforms, as those are T7 with 3+ armor saves. We can land turn 1. The grav guns also have 18" of range, so they don't have to land within coteaz's ability's range. I can land the 1 pod 12-18" away, disembark a squad of 10 guys and be completely immune to coteaz, while shrugging off most of the hits that are dealth with 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons by IG. 6 wounds max? I still get to shoot and kill a sabre platform at least. The warhound is not scoring, requires TLOS to fire, and can't fire indirectly, plus it really isn't very scary in assault. The closer it gets, the better my army can do against it. You seem to be forgetting the "majority Toughness" (or in this case armor save) rule. Since the two Guardsmen have 5+s, you wound my Grav on 5s. Moreover, Grav Guns are Salvo weapons, so when you arrive from a Drop Pod they only have a range of 9" and get two shots each. That's barely even one wound apiece (plus two more from the Bolters. "Better" seems like a pretty hilarious overstatement on how most of your army does against it. You hardly even have anything that can hurt it, much less destroy it. I keep wondering who these opponents of yours are. The trancendant C'tan has a meager 6 wounds. It can't fly and has a 3+/4++ with FNP. Yeah, you can hide it easy, but it's really a glass hammer (maybe tempered glass, but for the points, it's made of really expensive glass). As for options to destroy one, every unit in the army is able to damage it. Odds aren't great with anything, but it's only 6 wounds. The revenant is certainly a challenge. IF the centurions got in range, they could assault it, but I agree, such results are doubtful. Thing is, the revenant is really just a bunch of void shields in defensive value. At 900pts, again, glass hammer. Everything in the army can damage it at range and in assault (well, all units that can assault). Uh... yeah, odds are incredibly low for most of them. Toughness 9, guy, and 4++ with FNP. You're significantly more likely to kill yourself with a Plasmagun than you are to do a wound to it, and every time it shoots it will basically kill a unit or two with each Hellstorm template. (Also keep in mind that it's fairly simple for the C'tan to get a 3+ or even 2+ cover save thanks to Night Fighting, Zandrekh, etc.) You are capable of damaging the Rev, yes- I would say the Revenant is worse against some of your stuff than the Warhound, as the Warhound is just straight-up immune. But you can't possibly hope to get your Plasmaguns or Centurions in range of it when it can move 36" and if you think you can hide from a Revenant... well, I just don't even know what to say to that. Your Stormraven is basically the only threat you have against it (which, admittedly, is a bit of a pain for the Eldar player to bring down, but hardly impossible when the rest of your army is functionally ignorable.) In both cases, my opponent's support army is going to be the big challenge. The titan is certainly challenging, but the support elements are what will win/lose battle. Your army doesn't really have any good way to engage the Eldar support (Jetbikes or Wave Serpents), either. Actually, I think a big giant walker being a bit concerned about tripping, so having him slow down when climbing over uncertain terrain is a very reasonable rule. I think the other super heavies being immune to dangerous terrain doesn't make any fluffy sense. I don't think skilled rider making bikes immune to dangerous makes any fluffy sense either. I think that RAW, is how you normally argue 40k, and I don't see why ditching it makes a ton of sense just because logic disagrees with 40k rules. The Whirlwind is a barrage weapon, so TLOS resolves from the center hole. RAW is generally how the game is played, yes, but as I said: when you get absurd results, it makes sense to consider other interpretations. It seems rather silly for something the size of a skyscraper to be worried about tripping over a boulder. As far as the Whirlwind goes, nope! Cover is determined from the center hole, but LOS is not. Otherwise how would that make any sense- if you don't have LOS from the centerpoint to the centerpoint, it always scatters full distance? So all the comments about forcing grounding tests was just to force grounding tests and no intention of trying to wound it? Okay. Still, Seems iffy. They both are big models, but I've certainly seen games where FMCs passed well over 4 grounding tests in a single shooting phase. Main issue I'm seeing is if the IG aren't in range to fire at the flyer, say because of night fighting conditions. Some would be in range, but if trying to force the 4 grounding tests, all 4 must be in range. Yes. The only point of grounding a Harridan or Aeeklcf83jkcdlmndscjwnas is to get him where he can be hit by Destroyer weapons. And yes, certainly passing a bunch of Grounding tests is possible (I've seen FMC players go all game with only failing 1-2 of them), but that's not terribly likely. If you are out of range due to Night Fight, it is presumably because I went first, in which case I don't need to Ground you- you're already on the ground. If you go first, you are probably going to need to move forward (due to the requirements of Swoop movement), putting you in range of me. I do have a level 1 psyker (herald) with divination access, so re-rolling all the haywire stuff isn't impossible. Odds to fail the test, by the way, are 8.33%, given that's he's leadership 10. I also note that if I go first, you've got 6+ to go first with a single re-roll. Those odds are not very impressive. If you go first, my roll is 4+ with forced re-roll, which are still better than your odds at siezing - you seem to have a lot of stock in automatically going first, but I very much don't follow the reasoning. Very much depends on the psychic powers I roll and how well my other shooting goes. The warp storm table could also have a pretty large impact on this game, especially given how many units in your army. Game is very all or nothing on both sides. Yes, I realize that- I'm assuming all of your 6+d3 blasts are landing on my titan, but that doesn't help with the "penetration" roll any. You have a 25% chance of Seizing against me, I have a 13% of Seizing against you. And again- I described both potentials of either of us going first in my analysis there. You cannot realistically kill my titan on the first turn; I will almost always kill your FGC on the first turn. The Warp Storm table has surprisingly little effect on me, unless you interpret it to go "through" the Void Shield (which isn't unreasonable, but neither does it have any clear precedent.) You need to get pretty lucky to actually kill many of my guys, though- realistically, you're only gonna get 1-2 "hits" with any of the common rolls off the table. Been wondering this one. Why not put it in reserves? That's how I'd run it in apocalypse. I mean, you do lose a turn of shooting, but you also lose a turn of being shot at. Most interceptor weapons will be largely ineffective against a warhound's front, so seems like a decent plan. Plus, turn 1 DS opponents are stuck with half their stuff lacking the target on the table that they need to destroy. At 1750, basically, you have 1k to thin the opponent's numbers for a turn or two while the warhound does a final systems check. Seems like reserves are probably a more reliable defense than that void shield generator... Because giving up one (or more) turns of shooting with a unit that compromises most of my army is not usually a good plan. You've pointed out that the Warhound is most of the firepower in my army, and you're correct- pretty much everything else in the list exists to support the Warhound, so with it not on the table my army is rather toothless. This is not to even mention the additional 400pts I have in the Vendettas, which leaves hardly anything at all active, or the chance of failing to roll that 3+ (and 3+s never fail, right?) and end up missing the main focus of my army for half the game or more. There are situations where I might be tempted to leave it in reserve, but they would be relatively rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Major communication barrier here. I think maybe half of what you say, I understand your reasoning behind it. I suspect that about half of what I am saying, you are understanding. 3 pages or so, and I'm pretty sure we're not playing the same game. In my experience with 40k, about half of the stuff you post won't work, and it seems that it goes the other way too. Explaining it is proving fruitless. I did do some looking at your terrain in the photoed games from your link on page 1. The terrain selections pictured explain some of your issues, those trees are just horrible selections for escalation terrain. They block no LOS. This isn't really your fault, but I picture a good deal more challenge if the opponent places some better terrain. Oh, for TLOS with warhound, as a vehicle, it measures from his gun barrels, so those ruins your using are plenty high for blocking TLOS. Your "warhound" lacks a base, though I've been told that tournaments are requiring one. I don't really care, but you seem to care about that, so I figured I'd give you a heads up. Anyway, take care, I'm done with this one. I will echo my earlier statement that your beef with escalation is invalid as your evaluation seems contingent on FW units which are not part of the escalation supplement. I've found escalation games to be reasonably balanced (as close as 40k gets to balance). I very much agree that FW and Escalation are pretty broken and should likely not be in tournaments (or in friendly play). For FW and escalation, just use the apocalypse rules and disregard any attempts at balance.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 The terrain selections pictured explain some of your issues, those trees are just horrible selections for escalation terrain. They block no LOS. This isn't really your fault, but I picture a good deal more challenge if the opponent places some better terrain. Oh, for TLOS with warhound, as a vehicle, it measures from his gun barrels, so those ruins your using are plenty high for blocking TLOS. As clarification, that's not really "my" terrain- I said at the beginning of the article I consider it to be rather light on all the tables there, but there's not really anything that I can do about that. And yes, LOS is measured from the guns, but the guns are mobile on the Warhound/Leviathan/most large models, so it's not a big issue. Your "warhound" lacks a base, though I've been told that tournaments are requiring one. I don't really care, but you seem to care about that, so I figured I'd give you a heads up. That's rather odd, considering that the actual Warhound model doesn't come on a base at all. Which tournaments are these, out of curiosity? I will echo my earlier statement that your beef with escalation is invalid as your evaluation seems contingent on FW units which are not part of the escalation supplement. I've found escalation games to be reasonably balanced (as close as 40k gets to balance). I very much agree that FW and Escalation are pretty broken and should likely not be in tournaments (or in friendly play). For FW and escalation, just use the apocalypse rules and disregard any attempts at balance.... *shrug* I told you I feel the same way about Escalation without FW included, it just ends up being different units. You never really responded to that part, so I can't really say much more beyond that. I'm confused that you simultaneously think that Escalation is broken and shouldn't be used but also fine and not a problem and it's only how I play? Eh. In any case, if you're not inclined to continue the discussion, I won't push it any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aventine Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Two pages of hypothetical "Nuh-uh, then I'll do that, then this, etc.". One reply of that nature is too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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