Flameblade Strike Force question

[Guest]

Detachment special rules say that we add +1 strength the flamer weapons of all salamanders models in the detachment. It also states that all units must be drawn from the salamander's chapter. My question, does this strength modifier apply to the salamander's vehicles without the chapter tactics special rule (like the Land Raider Redeemers)? As written, seems like yes, but seems vague-ish, so I figured I'd double check. 

[WestRider]

"Salamanders Models" is shorthand for "Models with the Chapter Tactics Rule drawn from the Salamanders Chapter". It's in the SM Dex somewhere, in the section where they list all the Chapter Tactics.

[InfestedKerrigan]

So his LRR is just a SM LRR, not a SalamanLRR?

[Guest]

14 hours ago, WestRider said:

"Salamanders Models" is shorthand for "Models with the Chapter Tactics Rule drawn from the Salamanders Chapter". It's in the SM Dex somewhere, in the section where they list all the Chapter Tactics.

Hmmm...Found the page you are talking about. Doesn't really address it very well. I mean, yeah, it says that regarding units with chapter tactics, but it really doesn't address units without the chapter tactics rules. And the Iron Hand's Chapter Tactics further confuse this, by allowing models without the chapter tactics rules to gain the benefits of their chapter tactics. Page 4 of the FAQ for SM, top left, actually references the ability to have an entire army or detachment without the chapter tactics rule, but still count as being drawn from a specific chapter (Iron Hands is what it is talking about). 

If you are correct, as written, I cannot field any vehicles (except those with chapter tactics) in an army that specifically requires all models to be drawn from a given chapter. I'm not seeing any exception for non-chapter vehicles being included in any formation or detachment for SM. It's obvious, with the detachment rules, that they intend vehicles to be an option, but if they don't count as being drawn from a speific chapter, I can't bring them as written. 

[wildcat]

I would treat all vehicle purchased as part of you detachment as being salamanders. It is the same with iron hand all their vehicles get IWND, so I would imagine all Salamanders would get +1 to flamers.

 

here is the iron hands rule from lastest faq

 

Vehicles in an Iron Hands Detachment get the It Will Not Die special rule. Does this include any Tanks in an Iron Hands Detachment or only the Dreadnoughts with Chapter Tactics?
A: All Iron Hands vehicles gain It Will Not Die, including vehicles that do not have the Chapter Tactics special rules 

so in my opinion, your salamander get the +1

[WestRider]

Iron Hands have a specific exception, granted by that FAQ. Contrast with the earlier question about Ultramarines Vehicles benefiting from the Tactical Doctrine, where it is made clear that they do not, other than Dreads, which do have the Chapter Tactics Rule.

Note that there are two separate things going on. "Unit drawn from the Salamanders Chapter" is a broader category than "Salamanders Unit". Any SM Unit can be drawn from any Chapter, but only those with the Chapter Tactics Rule will be <CHAPTER> Units. That's the whole point of defining "<CHAPTER> Unit" as "Unit with the Chapter Tactics Rule drawn from <CHAPTER>". It establishes the two as separate, and not necessarily linked, characteristics. Only those with both, or with an explicit exception like Iron Hands Vehicles, can benefit from Chapter Tactics. And without that distinction, you would be correct that it would be impossible to take non-Dread Vehicles or Legion of the Damned in any SM Detachment.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, WestRider said:

Iron Hands have a specific exception, granted by that FAQ. Contrast with the earlier question about Ultramarines Vehicles benefiting from the Tactical Doctrine, where it is made clear that they do not, other than Dreads, which do have the Chapter Tactics Rule.

Note that there are two separate things going on. "Unit drawn from the Salamanders Chapter" is a broader category than "Salamanders Unit". Any SM Unit can be drawn from any Chapter, but only those with the Chapter Tactics Rule will be <CHAPTER> Units. That's the whole point of defining "<CHAPTER> Unit" as "Unit with the Chapter Tactics Rule drawn from <CHAPTER>". It establishes the two as separate, and not necessarily linked, characteristics. Only those with both, or with an explicit exception like Iron Hands Vehicles, can benefit from Chapter Tactics. And without that distinction, you would be correct that it would be impossible to take non-Dread Vehicles or Legion of the Damned in any SM Detachment.

So your argument is that they are Units Drawn from the Salamander's Chapter, but not Salamander's units? I'm really not seeing it spelled out as clearly as you are saying it is. 

And I'm not looking to grant vehicles the Chapter Tactics rules, just a detachment special rule which specifically modifies models from my chapter. It doesn't mention a chapter tactics requirement for the special rule that grants +1 strength to flamer weapons, which they certainly had space to add. 

PS: the Only models that this ruling would affect are the Redeemers and Land speeders. There aren't any other units with both access to flamer weapons and units that lack the chapter tactics rule, but could otherwise be included with Salamanders in the same detachment. EDIT: Oh, razorbacks too.

[generalripphook]

What is the actual wording on the special rule? 

[Guest]

"Scorched Earth: Add 1 to the strength of all flamer weapons (as defined by Warhammer 40,000: The Rules), used by Salamanders models in this detachment."

[Guest]

Last line of the Restrictions also mentions, "All units in this Detachment must be drawn from the Salamanders Chapter."

[WestRider]

6 hours ago, paxmiles said:

So your argument is that they are Units Drawn from the Salamander's Chapter, but not Salamander's units? I'm really not seeing it spelled out as clearly as you are saying it is.

Look at the example they give:

"For example, an 'Ultramarines Unit' refers to 'a Unit with the Chapter Tactics special Rule that is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter.'"

Replace 'Ultramarines' with 'Salamanders', and you have the situation here. To be a 'Salamanders Unit', it needs to meet both conditions. It must A) be drawn from the Salamanders Chapter and B) have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule.

For fluff purposes, those Units could certainly be described as 'Salamanders Units', but for Rules purposes, they do not fit the criteria.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Thanks a lot, Asshat.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Oh yeah, the Prez is on autocorrect