Steel Angel Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Need some input on my list. I feel like I'm missing some punch but can't figure out where. The troops shall be combat squad to give me 6 scoring units My Librarian shall be with the vets as a cc search/destroy unit. The assault marines shall be my intercept unit And the Knight well Knight SMASH! I feel like I got everything cover,but at the same time can't help but feel a major hole in list. what's Y'alls take. Codex: Space Marines RosterTotal Roster Cost: 1997Chief Librarian Tigurius Librarian Increase Mastery Level 2 + Jump Pack,The Shield EternalVanguard Veteran Squad x 5 Jump Packs + Melta Bombs + Power Fist + Power Sword x3Scout Squad x 10 Sniper Rifle x10 Tactical Squad x 10 Plasma gun + Plasma Cannon Tactical Squad x 10 Plasma gun + Lascannon Assault Squad x 9 Veteran Sergeant Melta Bombs + Lightning Claw x2 RhinoScout Bike Squad x3 Astartes Grenade Launcher x3 Melta BombsStormtalon Gunship x1 Typhoon Missile LauncherThunderfire CannonAegis Defence Lines Quad-gun:Knight Errant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 So, just thoughts. If planning to play escalation, a unit like the vanguard vets that includes the JP libby is a prime D weapon target. The Shield eternal does nothing against D weapons, so a unit that contains an otherwise difficult enemy will be targeted by D weapon ranged attacks. That knight makes up the majority of your high AV shooting. It's strong, but it shouldn't be the only reliable AT solution. Beyond that, you've got a power fist and some melta bombs, oh and a single lascannon and typhoon. Of these, only the Knight titan and the melta bombs can harm AV15 buildings. A combi-melta on the JP libby would help - most of the infantry squads would benefit from a combi-melta sarge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 I was really going for a Normal 40k list as I have nvr played escalation. For AT i was was thinking I could tweak the list and add two Vindicator preds or a Laz pred. As far as AV15 the only things that I can think of that I could truly count on hurting it are: Vin Preds, chain fist Tremies, assault Centurions and Sternguard in a drop pod. Of these the only one that I can count on making it across the field to hurt it are the sternguard. All exp. units The main problem I come across is I can make a strong list to kill AV (tank spam or forts ) or a Strong list to kill horde (Orks or Nid/Chaos MC spam). I can't seem to come up with a good one to kill both. But that could just be me being short sighted that why asking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Marines do struggle at having enough to do multiple jobs excellent, they excel at having lots of okay at stuff guys. I'd actually start by swapping the Libby to a Chaplin to make that search and destroy unit hit harder. Power swords are tempting on paper but I find mauls to be better, with them you can reliably kill armor twelve or lower stuff. You have the knight to kill harder melee targets. Also you are ultra Marines so remember your tactics it will help you in those situations you need. At the minimum the shield eternal is over kill on the Libby acceptable casualties is a big thing, and the power fist along with the shield from that squad is a whole other five Marines that can win you the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 The main problem I come across is I can make a strong list to kill AV (tank spam or forts ) or a Strong list to kill horde (Orks or Nid/Chaos MC spam). I can't seem to come up with a good one to kill both. But that could just be me being short sighted that why asking here. Nah, that's a normal threat for marines, being challenged to create the perfect all-comer's list. Okay, so average marine is far superior to average model of most other armies. That's sort of their thing, being above average in every area, but not amazing anywhere. To this end, the stock marine really has most of the bases covered: Frags can be thrown for a small AoE blast. Krak can be thrown to damage light vehicles. In assault, their initiative is pretty high, they have the assault grenades (to charge through cover), the krak grenades (MCs and tanks), and awesome armor saves. Oh, never forget combat squads, it's a handy way of being able to thrown two grenades with 1 "squad." Special/heavy weapons, additional melee options, combi-weapons and vehicles, all of these exist to supplement the basic marine. These are all options to fill roles that the stock marines don't fill very well. So, you need to decide on which areas your marines need help in. For fortifications, you really need Armour-bane weapons. S10 options, like the vindicator, will work decently against AV14, but they fail against AV15, as they can only pen on 6s, which can make for lackluster shooting. You need that extra d6 penetration to ensure the odds of getting past AV15, as the buildings shrug off glances. Marines have a few solutions here. Against a building, initiative doesn't matter, so chainfist terms and melta bombs are fine, provided that they can assault it - this usually means waiting until turn 3+ to solve your building issue. If the threat is AV15, that's one of the ones with a D weapon, so you really can't rely on assaulting it on a later turn. So, solution is ranged armor bane weapons - that's the Melta guns and multi-melta for marines. The knight titan is also a good choice here, the issue in your list isn't that he's a bad choice, it's that your list is over-reliant on his continued survival. If you want ideal conditions, you need to be able to reliably hit the building with 4-5 melta weapons in melta range on turn 1. This can be accomplished with scouting MM attack bikes, melta teams in pods, or by advancing your knight. Personal suggestion is a squad of 5 in a pod with 4-5 melta guns (or combi-meltas). For vehicle enemies, the fortification solutions still work, but you have other options. -For AV10 on all sides vehicles, your stock bolters are amazing. Bolt pistols too. No issues on 6s to glance when using rapid fire weapons mounted on every model in your army. Heavy bolters and heavy flamers can also be surprisingly effective here. -AV10 rear vehicles can be reliably destroyed with assaulting krak grenade armed marines. You don't need a special weapon for this. -For AV11-13, S7-9 weapons are your option. That's power fists, krak missiles, plasma guns, lascannons and autocannons. -For AV14, your looking at just melta weapons. Vindicators, conversion beamers at max range, and a few others also work. Lascannons can work, but you need to spam them to get reliable results. -A note on high AV walkers. The initiative can matter a good deal. Units with melta bombs and chainfists will suffer against these foes if they get to swing fist. This isn't always the case, but best to pick your battles wisely, as losing the chainfist/MB units may limit future AT solutions. You do have initiative order solutions: the siege drills and the chainfists on the ironclad dreadnoughts will strike in initiative order. Even against other knight titans, if you can get them to charge you through cover, they will have to deal with striking after your armour-bane weapons or melee D weapon. For hordes (like lots of guys), focus shifts from high strength as a priority to ability to hit lots of enemies. Large blasts, blasts, templates and such. You probably want to "turtle" your marines to force the enemy to come to you in an effort to maximize the number of turns of shooting you can get in. This can be a very tricky on for marines, as each unit lost or locked in melee, is just one less unit that can shoot with your already small army. If you can't get them to come to you (ranged horde), you will be forced to get them in melee ASAP, as marines will likely survive longer in assault against ranged hordes than if they tried to keep the game at range. For MC spam, those grav weapons are usually the ideal counter. Any high strength weapons will likely still work. In example, that suggested pod with 4-5 melta guys in it, will still land and deal considerable damage to MCs. The main concern is flying MCs, as those must be grounded to be reliably hit with our other weapons. Sniper weapons are a good counter to MCs, especially because if forced to snap anyway, you can have a mobile sniper team. If you notice, you could just spam high AV solutions in the army, rather than taking some weaker weapons and some stronger weapons. This can work, but may bite you too. It really depends on the opponent. A handful of units in 40k have immunity to melta weapons, so I'd personally suggest not only melta solutions, but that one could be me just being overcautious. For assaults, the sarge's weapons can be very important. -For a cheap character, be sure to swap the bolter for a CCW+BP combo, as it means an extra swing which can be quite helpful even without special weapons -Melta bombs for buildings and immobile vehicles. -Initiative order weapons are very useful in challenges, especially if the opponent has taken a power axe or fist, or has a similar low initiative weapon. -Power fists only for big units, as you can expect to take 6-7 deaths before the fist get's to swing against certain opponents. -If taking a fist (or lightning claw), consider a comb-weapon, as being a specialist weapon will grant you no benefit for bonus paired weapon attacks. -If you intend to add an independent character, be sure to mix intiative order weapons. In example, if the attached IC swings at iniative order, it can be smart to take a power axe or fist for the sarge, so you have both. Challenges are a huge part of marine assaults. Use them whenever possible. It can mean the difference between getting wiped in a single round and being able to tie them up for just one more round. You can also use this to kill off their unit commanders or ICs. Anyway, hope this long rant helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ok I listen and ponder all y'all advise and came up with this list. Total Roster Cost: 1989HQ: Master of the Forge (and yes can use all every turn) Power Maul + 2 power fist + flamer + plasma gun + The Shield EternalHQ: Librarian Force staff + Increase Mastery Level 2Command Squad 5 Command Squad + Meltagun x2 + Grav-gun x3 1 Drop PodElite: Vanguard Veteran Squad 4 Vanguard Veteran Squad + Power Sword x2 + melta bombs x4 1 Veteran Sergeant + Lightning Claw x2Elite: Ironclad Dreadnought Chain fist + Hunter-Killer Missile(s) x2Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 160 pts) 9 Tactical Squad + Plasma Cannon 1 SergeantTroops: Tactical Squad (10#, 165 pts) 9 Tactical Squad + Lascannon 1 SergeantFast Attack: Scout Bike Squad (3#, 89 pts) 2 Scout Bike Squad + Astartes Grenade Launcher x3 1 Scout Biker Sergeant + Melta BombsHeavy Support: Stormraven Gunship + twin-link Lascannon + multi meltaHeavy Support: VindicatorHeavy Support: VindicatorKnight Errant By taking the Iron Fist tactics giving all models feel no pain, a characters and vech. it will not die will make this list durable. it has strong fire power, good CC, air cover, horde blasting, and fort. smashing. as long as I use the right strategic tactics. Plus it's really fluffy for Iron Fists Does it pass mustered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ok I listen and ponder all y'all advise and came up with this list. Total Roster Cost: 1989 HQ: Master of the Forge (and yes can use all every turn) Power Maul + 2 power fist + flamer + plasma gun + The Shield Eternal HQ: Librarian Force staff + Increase Mastery Level 2 Command Squad 5 Command Squad + Meltagun x2 + Grav-gun x3 1 Drop Pod Elite: Vanguard Veteran Squad 4 Vanguard Veteran Squad + Power Sword x2 + melta bombs x4 1 Veteran Sergeant + Lightning Claw x2 Elite: Ironclad Dreadnought Chain fist + Hunter-Killer Missile(s) x2 Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 160 pts) 9 Tactical Squad + Plasma Cannon 1 Sergeant Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 165 pts) 9 Tactical Squad + Lascannon 1 Sergeant Fast Attack: Scout Bike Squad (3#, 89 pts) 2 Scout Bike Squad + Astartes Grenade Launcher x3 1 Scout Biker Sergeant + Melta Bombs Heavy Support: Stormraven Gunship + twin-link Lascannon + multi melta Heavy Support: Vindicator Heavy Support: Vindicator Knight Errant By taking the Iron Fist tactics giving all models feel no pain, a characters and vech. it will not die will make this list durable. it has strong fire power, good CC, air cover, horde blasting, and fort. smashing. as long as I use the right strategic tactics. Plus it's really fluffy for Iron Fists Does it pass mustered? Who is the warlord? Master of the forge needs work. I take it you mean he's got a servo harness? Flamer+Plasma cutter+2x servo arms? If so, servo arms are specialist weapons, so swap maul with lightning claw. Lightning claw is also a specialist melee weapon, so can gain the bonus attack for one of the servo arms. No cost difference from the maul, but maul alone will gain no bonus attacks without a second non-specialist melee weapon (I could be wrong here...). Also, for the army, do you need him a master of the forge? Can he be replaced with a [cheaper] techmarine to fill the same role? You've already got 1 HQ slot, so you don't need him as the warlord. I see no jump packs on the vanguard, an oversight? If not, how do they get to the battle? Stormraven? If so, you limit the options of what can arrive in the SR because you've effectively dedicated it. I suggest leaving the SR transported unit vague, so you can have troops deploy from it in games that need more mobile infantry. To this end, vanguard would benefit from a transport of their own (or jump packs). I like the individual units in the army, but I don't think it works well with itself. I suggest rhino/razor transports for the tactical squads, so they have the option of pushing up with the vindicators. They don't have to use them, but having them is a good option, especially against armies like tyranids, which often have trouble with the AV11 at long range. Worst case, use the rhinos as moving shields for the vindicators. I am unclear what the scout bikers bring to the army, other than an easy first blood option for the enemy - I like scout bikers, but what is this unit adding? For a suggestion, add a locator beacon. This means that turn pre-game, you infiltrate 18" from the enemy, scout to 12" and then are able to land the turn 1 drop pod without error within 6" of this point, then disembark the squad another 6" from the pod's location. This means you should be able to land a turn 1 melta team to within 1" of the enemy without error. Obviously, if you go second this plan won't work, so it is a gamble. The Ironclad is a good option. Is he arriving on target in the SR? If so, he doesn't need the HK missiles. If advancing on foot, the HK are a good call. What does the libby bring to the army? Which unit does he join? In this list, your only AA option is the SR. I suggest a second one, with preference to one that starts on the table so you have turn 1 AA, should you need it (FMCs). Besides holding backfield objectives, what do the tactical squads bring to the army? As is, I see them bringing very little. Perhaps give them transports, or perhaps replace one unit with one of scout marines (infiltrate/outflank). Lots of suggestions, grain of salt and all. Ultimately, whatever works will be fine. Goal is just to get you thinking about how the units work with themselves and their buddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 All good points. some can answer well but other I need to ponder on a bit. answer tomorrow. #am now lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 OK this is the list i came to. Not great at any one thing but can do many things. "In 769.M41 a elite chapter of Space Marines was Excommunicate by a Chaos corrupted Inquisitor for crimes they did not commit. This Chapter promptly escaped from a maximum security blockade of the system to regoup in the Maelstrom underground. Today, still wanted by the Inquisition, they continue their fight for humanities survival, and acted as soldiers of fortune. If your planet has a problem, if Imperium is no help, and if you can use a astropath contact them, maybe you can contact the Pariahs." The Pariahs“A Codex: Space Marines Roster”Total Roster Cost: 2000 HQ:Captain Hannibal, 165 ptsGorgon's chain + Power Axe x1+ Power Sword x1Librarian Bother Faseman Peck, 65 pts(Cypher) Merdock the Fallen, 190 pts(Mad Dogs) 5x Command Squad 200 pts Meltagun x2 + Grav-gun x3Elite: Dreadnought 120 pts Twin-Linked Autocannon x2Troops: Tactical Squad x10 141 pts Plasma CannonTactical Squad x10 141 pts Plasma Cannon Scout Squad x6 76 pts Sniper Rifle x6 + Melta Bombs x1Fast Attack: Scout Bike Squad x3 Astartes Grenade Launcher x2 + Melta Bombs x1Heavy Support: Vindicator x2, 250 pts Thunderfire Cannon 100 ptsAllies:Knight Errant x1 (Mighty Baracus) 370 ptsFort.:Aegis Defence Lines Icarus Lascannon 85 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappy Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 The A-Team of 40k! Bada$$!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 First off love the setup and fluff bit next read the salvo rules. You should come to the conclusion that standing still to get all three shots out of the grav will be tricky, and moving you only get 2 shots at 9". I prefer plasma when on foot like that command squad, grav on relentless platforms is good otherwise it is frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yer going to go with Iron hand rules. cant go wrong with a TV plot armor save for troops and vech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yer plasma just as good if not better, but for two reasons. 1. Better range on grav 2. 1's really like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Plasma has 24" Range moving or standing still. Grav has 18" Range standing still, and 9" moving. How is that better? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 That's why I recommended reading salvo rules. The gun rocks but I really deal salvo is dumb, should always be what ever range it has And just be fewer shots on the move... Meh discussion for another time and place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Hmm have been mistaken on savo rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Captain Hannibal, 165 pts Gorgon's chain + Power Axe x1+ Power Sword x1 What is the "gorgon's chain"? Which book is that from? I can't find it in C:SM. No pod listed with that command squad....? I think the points include a pod not listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Gorgon's Chain is from the Iron Hands Supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Gorgon's Chain is from the Iron Hands Supplement. Thanks, I was mislead by this: The Pariahs “A Codex: Space Marines Roster” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Gorgon's chain is awesome for friendlies, murder on anything with a time frame. Just be aware that you have to roll your saves one at a time and apply any changes immediately which could impact your remaining saves cool mechanic but time consuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Dropped the pod for a rhino. Being as only having one would seem that I would have to drop it turn one. Not sure that would be smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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