2 Rules questions

[MexicanNinja]

Ok I have two questions for the community.

 

1) I cannot find anything in the MRB about not being able to direct close combat attacks at the standard bearer in a unit.  Now, I know that this seems like a silly question, due to the standard just being picked up by someone.  However, I just want to make sure that a model could direct attacks at the standard bearer.

 

Scenario:  I declare 2 attacks on the standard bearer.  I hit 2 times, wound once, he fails save.  The standard bearer isn't slain, but a rank-and-file model is removed.

 

2) If a model/unit is subject to both Frenzy and Stupidity and that model/unit fails their Stupidity test then they don't need to test for Frenzy, correct?  The rule for Stupidity states they just mvoe forward a random D6" and they cannont take any other action.  Frenzy states they must test in the charge sub-phase if they do not declare a charge but could declare a charge.  I just want to make sure I have the correct assumption here.

 

Scenario: I have a unit who fails their Stupidy test and moves forward 2".  The unit is now 12" away from a unit who they could declare a charge against.   Because Stupidity happens before the charge sub-phase, there is no Frenzy roll needed to see if the unit must declare a charge.  Did I just play these rules correctly?

[BeaverBeliever]

1) Pg 94, "Standard Bearers and Casualties": "the standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion ... remain in the unit.  This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that affects only a single model....  Another rank and file warrior is still assumed to pick up the banner."  That's all I could find other than on Pg 48, "Who Can Strike?": "Normally, a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."  So, I would assume you could direct your attacks like that, but it shouldn't make a difference as far as I could tell.  How did this come up in your game?

 

2). Pg 76, "Me 'Ead 'Urts": "A unit that fails its Stupidity test ... cannot take any further action that turn, so cannot declare charges...."  And then under Frenzy, Pg 70, "Berserk Rage": "If ... a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed.  If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge...."  Therefore, I believe that since you're Stupid (wow that sounds bad out of context :D ) and couldn't declare a charge (emphasis mine, above), then no test is needed.

[Swan-of-War]

Technically you COULD direct attacks at a unit standard bearer, but since he's considered armed/armored the same as rank n' file there's no in-game effect.  Casualties are removed as BeaverBeliever described.  So there's no real reason to do this that I can tell - dramatic flair?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

The one time I can see this coming up is if you had Characters filling up the 1st rank and the only rank-file man left in front is the champion and SB. The champion takes a challenge and the only model from the unit is the SB.

[MexicanNinja]

1) Pg 94, "Standard Bearers and Casualties": "the standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion ... remain in the unit.  This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that affects only a single model....  Another rank and file warrior is still assumed to pick up the banner."  That's all I could find other than on Pg 48, "Who Can Strike?": "Normally, a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."  So, I would assume you could direct your attacks like that, but it shouldn't make a difference as far as I could tell.  How did this come up in your game?

 

2). Pg 76, "Me 'Ead 'Urts": "A unit that fails its Stupidity test ... cannot take any further action that turn, so cannot declare charges...."  And then under Frenzy, Pg 70, "Berserk Rage": "If ... a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed.  If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge...."  Therefore, I believe that since you're Stupid (wow that sounds bad out of context :D ) and couldn't declare a charge (emphasis mine, above), then no test is needed.

1)  It hasn't come up yet.  However it will soon.  Here's the scenario.  Malekith is in combat with a unit who has a magic standard.  Malekith directs attacks at the standard bearer.  Standard bearer is hit.  I roll a 4+.  Magic standard is no more.  It is only for Malekith to destroy magic banners in a unit.  FInal conclusion....suck on that BotWD.

 

2) That's what I thought, I just wanted to make sure I play it correctly.  Basically, I am thinking of running a Cauldron in a unit of CoK's.

[MexicanNinja]

Technically you COULD direct attacks at a unit standard bearer, but since he's considered armed/armored the same as rank n' file there's no in-game effect.  Casualties are removed as BeaverBeliever described.  So there's no real reason to do this that I can tell - dramatic flair?

Malekith can destroy magic items on a 4+ if he scores 1 or more hits on his target.  It's purely to try and remove magic standards from a unit.

[Swan-of-War]

Ahhhh, pretty sneaky sis'.

[BeaverBeliever]

1)  It hasn't come up yet.  However it will soon.  Here's the scenario.  Malekith is in combat with a unit who has a magic standard.  Malekith directs attacks at the standard bearer.  Standard bearer is hit.  I roll a 4+.  Magic standard is no more.  It is only for Malekith to destroy magic banners in a unit.  FInal conclusion....suck on that BotWD.

 

Ah, I see.  I still can't seem to find a reason why that's not possible, so I'd say go for it (I'm assuming Malekith's hits are on a "model" rather than "character" with a magic item?).

[MexicanNinja]

I'll have to look at the actuall wording when I get home tonight.

[MexicanNinja]

Ah, I see.  I still can't seem to find a reason why that's not possible, so I'd say go for it (I'm assuming Malekith's hits are on a "model" rather than "character" with a magic item?).

Yes, the rules states and any model, not character, who suffers 1 or more hits.

[Swan-of-War]

And because the magic item is destroyed outright ( and not made inert) the unit loses it's standard too right? Another model couldn't pick it up as a normal standard - it's just gone. According to what's in this thread, looks legit to me.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

That's pretty cute. : )

[MexicanNinja]

And because the magic item is destroyed outright ( and not made inert) the unit loses it's standard too right? Another model couldn't pick it up as a normal standard - it's just gone. According to what's in this thread, looks legit to me.

 

I wasn't even going to take it that far.  I was just going for destroying the magic banner and then letting the unit revert to a normal standard.  However, since you brought it up, what's everyone else's thought on this?

 

Swan brings up a good point, if you destroy a magic weapon they revert to a mundade close combat weapon.  If you destroy magic armour, it's just gone.  If you destroy a magic banner?

 

 

High Elves and Lizardmen could also do with high magic.

[ClassicFlava]

Its situations like this that are the reason I am not a fan of named characters. There is one model in all of the armies that can do this in close combat and its a named character. using magic is a different story bwcause it can be dispeled in most cases.

[MexicanNinja]

What you have to understand it that it's also 500 points to do this, and this only happens in close combat.  For a character who is over 500 points, he better do something amazing.  He has NO ward save against magic attacks.  I love named characters and feel they should be allowed more than they currently are.  They are here for a reason, we should be able to use them from time to time.

 

The difference with Malekith and High Magic is that I have to be in base contact with the intended target.  The casters don't, they can just sit back and target them.  They can also do it with a cheaper point cost as well.  You could have a level 2 who costs 150 points (much much less than Malekith) doing these shananigans.  However, since that's not a named character it's acceptable?

[Swan-of-War]

But the Banner of World Dragon grants a 2+ Ward vs. the Arcane Unforging as it's a direct damage spell, no?

I don't have all the rulebooks in front of me so sorry if this is wrong.

[MexicanNinja]

I don't think Unforging rolls to wound.  If there is no wound roll, then it just hits and does it's work.