8th Edition List Building

[happycamper]

4 less wounds to be exact

[WestRider]

5 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Dedicated AA have advantages though...  Chaos Marines are really deadly w their strategems against flyers.  The Astra Militarum Hydra is good too. So you dont NEED it but I mean...  it certainly does not hurt.  I do agree that its less necessary, just pointing out that the rules and strategems for some of them make them pretty good at their jobs.

The Stratagems aren't really what I'd call "Dedicated" AA. You're not paying any Points for them, and they're not forcing any substantial restrictions on your list, just "must contain at least one Infantry Missile Launcher". And that Missile Launcher is still fully effective on ground targets, unlike, say, a Hydra, which suffers a non-negligible penalty when shooting at stuff on the ground.

[Lord Hanaur]

20 hours ago, WestRider said:

The Stratagems aren't really what I'd call "Dedicated" AA. You're not paying any Points for them, and they're not forcing any substantial restrictions on your list, just "must contain at least one Infantry Missile Launcher". And that Missile Launcher is still fully effective on ground targets, unlike, say, a Hydra, which suffers a non-negligible penalty when shooting at stuff on the ground.

semantics.  a chaos unit with Missile launchers is a very strong option with the strategem and spending the point is a choice.  There is no GOOd reason to put all four missiles into one unit unless you are thinking AA.  So from THAT perspective, I call it "dedicated" because you are making a list choice based on keeping the missiles protected by splitting them up, but BECAUSE you're thinking AA, you put them in one unit instead.  

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

semantics.  a chaos unit with Missile launchers is a very strong option with the strategem and spending the point is a choice.  There is no GOOd reason to put all four missiles into one unit unless you are thinking AA.  So from THAT perspective, I call it "dedicated" because you are making a list choice based on keeping the missiles protected by splitting them up, but BECAUSE you're thinking AA, you put them in one unit instead.  

That stratagem only works on a single model's missile launcher, not the entire unit. And you can't use the same stratagem more than once in a single phase, at least in ITC. So even if you have 4 missile launchers, the stratagem is only going apply once, to one of those missile launchers. So no logic in multiple missile launchers as dedicated AA. 

It's still a neat stratagem, but not something to encourage 4 missile launchers in a single unit. Missile Launchers are still useful, in their own right. Nothing wrong with havoc squad with 4 missile launchers, but it doesn't help with the stratagem. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, WestRider said:

The Stratagems aren't really what I'd call "Dedicated" AA. You're not paying any Points for them, and they're not forcing any substantial restrictions on your list, just "must contain at least one Infantry Missile Launcher". And that Missile Launcher is still fully effective on ground targets, unlike, say, a Hydra, which suffers a non-negligible penalty when shooting at stuff on the ground.

Although this stratagem doesn't encourage squads with 4 missile launchers, I do think the stratagems influence my model selection, and do have some degree of cost. Relics too, by the same logic. And legion traits, especially. Choice of legion trait greatly influences the effectiveness of various weapons and encourages/discourages lots of units. 

Iron Warriors, for example, I think benefit from missile launchers more than the others, just because their denial of cover makes the weapon effectively have lower ap against most targets. Granted, this would work with any weapon, but missile launchers I think have most benefit. 

Regarding AA, That Helldrake, despite being a flyer itself, is pretty much dedicated AA. It melee hits models with FLY on 3+ while it only hits other things on 4+. That Baleflamer is also well built for AA use in 8e. Helldrake remains useful against other targets, but it shines against flyers. 

Speaking of, weapons that auto hit are considerably better AA in this edition. Especially the higher strength ones, like the Hellhound's Inferno cannon or the Helldrake's Baleflamer. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Yes, strong flamers grew considerably in usefulness.  Grey Knights should take note!