Talapas Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 How come I don't see many monster mash lists? It seems like a blast to play. What stops you from going all in on the thunderstompers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Tomb King w/ Chariot, Sword of Might,Armour of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Endurance Liche High Priest Lvl 4 Lore of Neh w/ Skeletal Steed, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation, Ruby Ring of Ruin 10 Skeletal Horsemen w/ FC, light armour 10 Horse Archers w/ Standard 10 Horse Archers w/ Standard 7 Skeleton Chariots w/ Musician & Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame Khemrian Warsphinx w/ Fiery Roar Khemrian Warsphinx w/ Fiery Roar Khemrian Warsphinx w/ Fiery Roar Necrosphinx Necrosphinx Casket of Souls I would have a blast with a Monster SMASH! list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Because an all monster mash list suffers from crumbling horrible bad. One chuffed thunderstomp will see you losing expensive models quickly. Also cannons care not for your non marching monsters. Also they can't be healed well Also their WS is so awfully low, and str 5 is so bad on the sphinx . Fun but oftentimes provided a bad game in rock paper scissors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 No marching really kills this idea pretty quick. If you have to go to your opponent, you need to get there in reasonable order Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talapas Posted May 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I understand that no marching is bad, but you aren't marching without monsters either. They can't kill everything, and you will get beat up by a gun line regardless of what type of list you decide to roll with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Monster move is 8. Seems as fast as human march to me. Or is it 6... either way not horrible. And some monsters fly. So 10 inch move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Monster move is 8. Seems as fast as human march to me. Or is it 6... either way not horrible. And some monsters fly. So 10 inch move Humans don't move fast either so that's not really the comparison we're looking for. I understand that no marching is bad, but you aren't marching without monsters either. They can't kill everything, and you will get beat up by a gun line regardless of what type of list you decide to roll with. If you're spending a bunch of points on them, they certainly have to kill a lot. And the initial post was about going all in on Thunder Stomps. Admittedly, I don't understand what you're driving at. They give the TK army a very expensive, slow moving compotent that doesn't kill much where an opponent can garner a lot of points at once. The TK community seems to regard the idea as one that doesn't work but lots of people make things work that shouldn't. If it looks fun, give it a go. As an aside, I always thought the Sphix's would make a pretty coold GoreBeast chariot for a Tzeentch/Egyptian themed Warriors army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 TK monsters work well against smaller units. They really shine when they join an infantry unit in an already existing combat. They need rank bonus assistants if they want to take on an infantry block. I think s5 is fine. Plus poison attacks or breath weapon help mitigate fluffing your to hit rolls. I would bring some extra monsters, but I dont wanna pay the 120 bucks for 2 more sphinxes lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 TK monsters work well against smaller units. They really shine when they join an infantry unit in an already existing combat. They need rank bonus assistants if they want to take on an infantry block. I think s5 is fine. Plus poison attacks or breath weapon help mitigate fluffing your to hit rolls. I would bring some extra monsters, but I dont wanna pay the 120 bucks for 2 more sphinxes lol. If by "shine" you mean "evaporate," then maybe... The reason people don't do TK monster mash list is, as others have said, Rock-Paper-Scissors syndrome. They're great against high-S, low-A models. Skullcrushers for instance, or steam tanks, or demon princes. They're even better against elite infantry, so your executioners, your white lions, etc. Unfortunately, they also have sooooo many bad matchups. Cheap, low-S infantry for instance are still hitting them on 6's but will always be steadfast, will never break, and you only need to get a few 6's through before wounds+SCR is just popping them. In addition lists with lots of cannons, lots of BS-based shooting, or lots of cannons make them just evaporate. They're so slow you get several full turns to shoot at them, and it only takes a few 6's to do it. Furthermore a sphinx with 3 wounds left is just going to die in combat, since you're bound to roll 6's eventually. On top of all that, they can't break steadfast so will rarely actually score you any points. They can grind things down sure, but even if you hit with all their attacks and roll a 6 for thunderstomp they're still testing to break on LD10 rerollable. You have to grind them down to a man, and your enemy is statistically likely to roll a few 6's by that point. Where sphinxes REALLY shine is denying a flank. For 200 points they're a very reliable tarpit that can hold down one of your flanks for a turn or two. That gives you isolate and dismantle the rest of your opponents army, while trapping the rest behind a sphinx. And unlike the rest of your tarpits (i.e. skeletons), they don't bleed combat res. 1-2 sphinxes is going to do that job really well for you. Issue is that 1-2 sphinxes will just get cannoned/poisoned/magicked off the board turn 2 against a vast majority of opponents. So quick that you may as well be playing 200/400 points short. Since Tomb Kings are essentially playing short as it is (since everything save the casket is overcosted) that's an unacceptable handicap to many. So instead we "cannon-proof" our lists by taking mostly infantry blocks, monstrous cav, and chariots (that are easier to raise). Also not being able to march makes aggressive Tomb Kings lists very problematic. Between chaff and movement debuffs you can quite easily prevent them from doing much of anything. That or make you walk across the table under a hail of trebuchet rocks and comets (yeah...I didn't win that game). If your opponent came out to roll dice then you'll be fine, but against skilled opponents playing to win it's just a slow, agonizing exercise in moving models a few inches then taking them off the table. To combat that you need to bring enough ranged threats to force your opponent to at least meet you half way, but then you're just doing the same thing you complained about and in no time you end up with an army that's little more than a pretty looking wall that sits in front of a magical artillery nightmare that just melts your opponents as they walk towards you. ...which is why I play Vampires now instead of Tomb Kings... That said, if you're looking to run the monster mash list, OFCC is the place to do it. Limits on skinks makes Lizards not as scary. Ditto limits on cannons. It's a shame you can't run double-box, since that's what I'd do for a magic-light monster mash list, but I guess someone at the TO committee had a bad experience against it :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 No I mean shine. If you put them in a combat you are already losing then ya double crumble = evaporate. If you use them to help a close matchup between two infantry blocks. The thunderstomp and remaining attacks can really help push things over. I agree that they have a rough go, but I think we both gave examples of how they work with a little finesse. I definitely get a lot VC jealousy with the current TK book btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 No I mean shine. If you put them in a combat you are already losing then ya double crumble = evaporate. If you use them to help a close matchup between two infantry blocks. The thunderstomp and remaining attacks can really help push things over. I agree that they have a rough go, but I think we both gave examples of how they work with a little finesse. I definitely get a lot VC jealousy with the current TK book btw. Until they realize we can't march, and all that jealousy fades away :P I agree though that in an infantry vs. infantry matchup where you're able to mitigate the rate at which your skeletons bleed combat res (i.e. a royal in the unit, and a buff or two) the sphinx can tip the scales in your favour. But it's extremely risky. A countercharge you didn't see against your skeletons and both units are toast. A good phase of buffs/debuffs and both units are toast. And against units that can't be thunderstomped the sphinxes have issues (read ogres). If it wasn't for cannons then sphinxes would be solid. But between cannons and poison the scales are tipped away from them. An event like OFCC that comps cannons and poisons makes them viable, but in an all-comers environment you're going to run up against matchups where they're effectively dead points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 I meant I have jealousy of VC. Even more them cannons I hate poison and having a terrible armor save against a bunch of shooting or cc attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krieger Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Stupid auto correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 I meant I have jealousy of VC. Even more them cannons I hate poison and having a terrible armor save against a bunch of shooting or cc attacks. Yeah that's why I finally just broke down and switched. I was so bloody frustrated with this book it just wasn't fun for me anymore. For reference here's the list I was running: 2500 points Hierophant - Level 4, Nehek, dispel scroll Banishment Mage - level 4, Light, powerstone Level 1 - light, forbidden rod Level 1 - light 20 archers, champ mus 3 chariots, std mus 3 chariots, std mus 5 horse archers 5 horse archers Ramhotep 33 tomb guard, FC, halberds, razor standard 5 snakes, std mus Catapult Casket Casket Light helped the snakes blend and the tomb guard hit first. I also used Timewarp for surprise charges (people forget about the double movement). Double casket mostly for redundancy (magic phase fails when they die). Chariots split into two units for extra threat range, splitting fire to clear chaff, and because I found people were more likely to play chicken against them instead of just chaff them and charge in. The list was strong but incredibly un-fun. I've tried hard to make something that was less static (running death instead of light, for instance) but none of it really worked well. I wish TK had access to shadow. And a march bubble like VC have. With those two things I could build a list that I'd really enjoy. Instead I just went and built that list in VC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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