Got my first demo game tomorrow.

[Duckman]

Warriors of Chaos vs. Bretonnia at 1000 points.

We'll see if it merits a batrep.  It will be played with Foam Core bases and 2d figures (traditional Poorhammer) because nobody is collecting miniatures yet so there will probably not be any pics but we shall see.

[Duckman]

Unfortunately, not much of a BatRep here.  This was Bretonnians vs. Warriors of Chaos at 1000 points.

203 points Baron on Warhorse (With the Quest Knights)
    -Sword of Heroes
    -Shield
    -Questing Vow
    -Virtue of Noble Disdain

258 points: Knights of the Realm on foot x20 (5 wide)
    - First Knight
    - Standard Bearer
    -Musician
    -Banner of Chalons

121 points: Men at Arms x26 (5 wide)
    -Yeoman
    -Standard Bearer
    -Musician

318 points: Questing Knights x9 (Lance of 10 with Lord)
    -Paragon
    -Standard bearer
    -Virtue of Knightly Temper

100 points: Trebuchet

vs

Warriors of Chaos - Demo Combat - [999pts]

## Main Force [999pts]

### Characters [304pts]
Aspiring Champion [97pts]: (In Warriors block)
• 1x Aspiring Champion: Battle Standard Bearer, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield

Exalted Champion [207pts]: (in Warriors block)
• 1x Exalted Champion: General, Enchanting Aura, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Favour of the Gods, Filth Mace, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield

### Core [578pts]
Chaos Knights [250pts]: (4 wide)
• 8x Chaos Knight: Chaos Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lance, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield
• 1x Champion
• 1x Musician
• 1x Standard Bearer

Chaos Warriors [263pts]: (5 wide)
• 15x Chaos Warrior: Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield
• 1x Champion
• 1x Musician
• 1x Standard Bearer: Banner of Range

Marauder Horsemen [65pts]: (5 wide)
• 5x Marauder Horsemen: Cavalry Spear, Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Javelin, Warhorse, Hand Weapon

### Special [117pts]
Chaos Ogres [117pts]: (3 wide)
• 3x Chaos Ogre: Great Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided
• 1x Champion

 

First observation is that my opponent's list is weak with lots of points in the Knights on Foot (not mobile) and no basic shooting.

 

The table is 4'x4', 2 woods on the edge on my left and an impassible farm house with a low wall (linear obstacle) and two large wheat fields (block line of sight, no movement effect) on the right flank.

I place first.  Resulting placement is, left to right for me...

Marauder Cav, Knights, Warriors, Ogres.

His line opposite is Trebuchet, Men at Arms, Knights on Foot, Questing Knights.

He prays for the Blessing of the Lady and I go first.

There's an error by my opponent here.  He's set the knights up outside the wheat fields forgetting that they will block LOS and thus charges.  Essentially he has sequestered 520 of his 1000 points at this time.

 

Turn 1 - I roll Gaze of the Gods for both Champions.  My BSB gets STR/LD (6) and my General gets WS (4).  Both are in the Warriors block (I'm not exactly bunkering but I want to see how it performs against the Bret Baron plus Knights in the Lance with the worst possible interpretation of the Lance rules, basing only the tip of the Lance and everything else is not in contact).  I march everyone forward looking to get into contact.  My Fast Cav threaten his Treb, my Knights threaten his Men at Arms, my warriors oppose his Foor Knights and my Ogres hide behind the impassible building looking toward the infantry blocks.  He the Men at Arms to my left trying to shield the Treb and pushes the others forward.  His Treb fires at my knights and misfires (Twang).

Turn 2- My champions both roll temporary stats this turn on Gaze of the Gods.  My Marauders march to right in front of his Treb and Quick Turn to face the Flank of the Men at Arms.  My knights fail a charge in front of his Men at Arms stopping 10" away from him (his max charge). by rolling 6+1+1 with Swiftstride and missing by millimeters.  My warriors continue to march forward, the Ogres step in line toward the middle to make sure the Lance cannot hit them in the back.  (Forgot I could Move and Shoot even with march so no Jav's this turn.)

His Men at Arms shift toward the Treb again while the Knights on Foot walk forward into charge range and the Lance wheels into the first wheat field and onto the road to get some LoS.  His treb shoots hits the Knights this time.  The Champ makes his LoS.  3 Knights die but we pass Panic.

Turn 3 - Forget to roll Gaze of the Gods.  I wanted a cheatsheet and forgot to put it together.  Combo-charge the Men at Arms with both groups of horse, charge the Foot Knights with the Warriors.  The Knights lose one to the Men at Arms but the Marauders are unscathed.  Men at Arms end on a 2, fail completely and Flee from the Maraders (oops, they have more US now)...  Marauders fail to hold (I wanted to shoot the Treb next) and the knights roll snakeyes to fail to run down the peasants.  The Warriors win by a few but the Foot Knights only FBIGO for 3-4".  I pursue and we lock up again.  On his 3 the peasants fail to rally and flee into the rear of the knights who don't care (but are now crowded).  His Lance pushes forward to the next field so he can see the infantry battle and set a charge for his 4.  The battle between the infantry is close (he loses by 2) and he holds so we don't move.

Turn 4 - I remember Gaze of the Gods this turn and get the same result.  My BSB is now S 6, Ld 10 and my General is WS 8.  My Knights charge the flank of the Foot Knights.  My Marauders turn and shoot the Treb for 1 wound.  With the help of the Knights I get a net -6 on the Foot Knights and they FBIGO again.  This means they bounce through the peasants.  Here we played it wrong.  We had the peasants panic again and flee through the foot knights and off the board.  They should have ignored the knights fleeing through them (fleeing units don't check panic).  My warriors restrain and set to receive the Lance while my Knights pursue.  They should have hit the peasants, destroyed them and reformed.  We played it as hitting the Knights on Foot instead.  On his 4, my opponent charged the Warriors with his Lance which was what we were most interested in.

 

Now, point of note...  The Lance says everyone on the outside is considered to be in base contact with the enemy unit.  It says nothing about being reciprocal.  I remember the bus which was equally stupid and I think this is intended.  There's a lot of noise from non-Bret players about how this should result in full frontage being applied to the opponent unit so multiattack units (like my frenzied Warriors) get lots of attacks.  I fully expect this to get a FAQ that says it is written as intended and the Brets only face attacks from 2-3 models so that's what we played to test.

His Baron has to challenge by vow.  I accept the challenge with my General.  He throws 4 attacks and wiffs.  His horse throws 1 and wiffs.  I throw 5 attacks for 3 potential wounds and he saves 2 on armor and ward. So I win the challenge with 1 wound (not killing him).  His Lance swings with Champion plus 6 for 7 great weapon attacks and 6 horse attacks and throws 2 wounds, 1 of which I save.  I throw frenzied Champ + command (7 attacks) and get 1 through his armor and ward.  I have no ranks (First Charge) and he has no ranks (1 casualty) so I win by BSB and a wound.  At this point he scooped and we called it.

[Duckman]

My takeaway is that Warriors are still Warriors.  They really want MSU and casting to modify tempo or threaten shooters.  This could have gone a lot worse for me if my opponent had been better prepared.  That said, my Chaos Armor ward was never really tested and at 1000 points I cannot afford to make nasty characters.  Dragon Lord or Chariot Lord is a nasty guy and I can't imagine him being rare this edition.

 

Lots of people like GW because you drop to I 1 and then gain your charge bonus to be I 3 or I 4 with AP-2.  The problem is that the armies you want it against are all fast.  I don't care if you are I 4...  I still get to swing.  Elves, same.  Dwarves have runes to punish you with if you try it.  Seems like a very situational plan to me, far more than people are making it out.

[Brother Glacius]

When you are in combat, whatever facing is touching the enemy is your fighting rank. All models in the fighting rank fight, regardless if they are in btb with an enemy model. They don't even have to have a model across from them. All fighting rank models fight. So this really takes away from the Bret lance now, and why wide units are going to be tricky to face at times. Yes, they wheel horribly, but when charged, they get lots of attacks back unless you can clear the whole front line.

[Duckman]

Frenzied Chosen have 3+ attacks per model.  More if you have AHW (not that you'd ever give them those and lose Ensorcelled Weapons).  Models in the Fighting rank are only guaranteed 1 attack.  You have to be in base-to-base to get your full profile.  Who in the enemy unit is in base with the Lance matters a whole lot for something like 12 of the 16 armies...  Monstrous Infantry are going to be the most common but some lists have lots more options that that.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

oops. Wrong thread. 

[Brother Glacius]

I didn't see anything in the FAQ that addressed that. It says for the lance formation that every model on the outside is considered in BtB. I don't think it is much of a stretch to say any opponent model across from a knight would then also be considered in BtB.

Oh, and the lance formation at least in this edition only gets a rank bonus if they reach at least four across. So that means a lance needs 10 models before they get a +1 (although they do get a +1 just for being in lance). A normal heavy cav only needs 8 models to get a rank bonus. So if you kill just one knight, they lose any rank bonus. Not nearly as bad as I recall from previous editions.

It really needs to get FAQs though (unless there are more rules in the Bret book). I haven't read that one yet because I don't really care about brets.

[Duckman]

There are not more rules but there is also nothing that says the enemy models are in base contact.  Everyone wants there to be because otherwise this is the return of the bus and everyone hated that too.  The problem is that we don't have a leg to stand on...  The rules have no contradictions in them.  Base contact is well defined and the Brets have a special rules that says "count as in base contact" which is not reflexive.

In addition, note that a lance of knights bounced off my Chaos Warriors...  Not Chosen, Chaos Warriors...  WS5, T4, W1, A1, 4+ 6++ models and we ruled that only 3 of my models were in contact so my BSB lost 3 attacks (my general was in a challenge so he got a full swing anyway).  Even with First Charge taking my ranks he lost by 2.  The Brets are dependent on their knights carrying them and point-for-point they are not good enough...  Especially not if you get to the point that they should be running in Close Order instead of Lance because Lance sucks for them.