AbusePuppy Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The most common version I've seen is 4 Centurions with Grav/Hurricane/Omniscope, Draigo, Sevrin Loth, and a GK Librarian, since those guys all fill required slots anyways. Gets you guaranteed Invisibility (as well as probably Shrouding and another power, plus Psychic Shriek for a bit of flexibility in targeting), 2-3 rolls on Divination (hoping for Perfect Timing and/or Misfortune and getting Prescience as a bonus) plus the Gate you need. Superheavies, especially Knights, will generally wreck it pretty badly due to the S10 melee hits and being largely immune to other firepower; other armies will struggle with it to varying degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Ah, Loth, that's the guy. I knew Tiggy didn't feel quite right. That lets you just rock a SM Allied Detachment instead of the CAD, too, since you're not looking for Tiggy's Warlord Trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 People generally only take tiggy if they want a quick dip for Cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The most common version I've seen is 4 Centurions with Grav/Hurricane/Omniscope, Draigo, Sevrin Loth, and a GK Librarian Okay, so 175pts for Loth and Red Scorpions Chapter tactics. 4 Centurions with grav and an omincope for 380pts. Draigo is another 245pts. Then a GK libby, at a base cost of 110pts. That's 870pts.... I agree, looks like a nasty unit, but at the same time, also looks like you could do a comparable amount of damage with a super heavy or entire army at that cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I agree, looks like a nasty unit, but at the same time, also looks like you could do a comparable amount of damage with a super heavy or entire army at that cost. I think this is the part you're not getting: - It is allowable in settings that don't allow super heavies and you really can't do that same damage with your entire army. - It is unlikely that your entire army can access any unit on your opponent's side and flood the unit with AP2, ignores cover shots that reroll hits and wounds (or strip hull points quickly and easily using grav immobs). I agree that it is expensive, but saying 'yeah but any 800 point unit/army is that good' is simply not accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainA Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Yeah, I don't think you've quite experienced the cent star pax, it's nasty. He got the lotion on his skin...and he liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainA Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 He got the lotion on his skin...and he liked it. Too much!?!? Too soon? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think this is the part you're not getting: - It is allowable in settings that don't allow super heavies and you really can't do that same damage with your entire army. - It is unlikely that your entire army can access any unit on your opponent's side and flood the unit with AP2, ignores cover shots that reroll hits and wounds (or strip hull points quickly and easily using grav immobs). I agree that it is expensive, but saying 'yeah but any 800 point unit/army is that good' is simply not accurate. Settings that don't allow lords of war won't allow that. You also are using FW chapter tactics and FW special characters. Also, if using LVO 2015 rules, you also have to worry because they nerfed invisibility (you can hit them with blast weapons and such, you just count as BS 1 and hit on 5s in assault). Not sure which events allow lots of FW and lords of war, but ban super heavies... That is a 900pt unit, for starters. And yes, it fearsome. That said, 900pts means you need to kill 150pts per turn for 6 turns to just break even on your point investment. And this is mounted on a unit that can't fire overwatch with most of it's models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Settings that don't allow lords of war won't allow that. You also are using FW chapter tactics and FW special characters. Also, if using LVO 2015 rules, you also have to worry because they nerfed invisibility (you can hit them with blast weapons and such, you just count as BS 1 and hit on 5s in assault). Not sure which events allow lots of FW and lords of war, but ban super heavies... That is a 900pt unit, for starters. And yes, it fearsome. That said, 900pts means you need to kill 150pts per turn for 6 turns to just break even on your point investment. And this is mounted on a unit that can't fire overwatch with most of it's models. You don't need Draigo or Loth for it. Like we mentioned earlier, you can do it with a drop pod, Tiggy and 3-4 cents. I give up. I'll go ahead and keep being very aware of Centstar and the damage it can do to an army I'm commanding and you can go ahead and not do that. We'll agree to disagree. Let's go ahead and set a follow-up to come back here once you have actually faced it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 You don't need Draigo or Loth for it. Like we mentioned earlier, you can do it with a drop pod, Tiggy and 3-4 cents. I give up. I'll go ahead and keep being very aware of Centstar and the damage it can do to an army I'm commanding and you can go ahead and not do that. We'll agree to disagree. Let's go ahead and set a follow-up to come back here once you have actually faced it though. Is that what you were arguing? I thought you were trying to impress me. I've been saying for several posts, that it is a fearsome, nasty unit. I do worry about it, but I'm not impressed by it due to the high point investment. That's all. Tiggy and 3-4 cents is way less nasty. Tie that one up with an assault squad. No ap3 weapons in that unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 It is an old way of thinking, but I'm impressed based on a unit's ability to earn back it's points. With a 900pt unit, I require an opponent to "feed" me 150pts of models per turn for 6 turns just to break even. Should be fine if they have a similarly constructed deathstar or superheavy, but MSU is going to really hurt. Those grav are also mid-range weapons, so I really rely on my opponent keeping things in range for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 MSU does hurt somewhat, but Split Fire also mitigates that. Against SM, you're looking at mulching a Combat Squad and a half every Turn. Depending on the way the positioning works out, it may also be very viable to send Draigo off on his own against an MSU force, further increasing the efficiency. Gate makes range largely a non-issue, in addition to being a tarpit breaker. Even without using that often, a 30" threat radius is pretty huge once you've reached midfield. It's often possible to set them up so they're dominating most of the Objectives. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 MSU does hurt somewhat, but Split Fire also mitigates that. Against SM, you're looking at mulching a Combat Squad and a half every Turn. Depending on the way the positioning works out, it may also be very viable to send Draigo off on his own against an MSU force, further increasing the efficiency. Gate makes range largely a non-issue, in addition to being a tarpit breaker. Even without using that often, a 30" threat radius is pretty huge once you've reached midfield. It's often possible to set them up so they're dominating most of the Objectives. I can certainly see where the unit would shine against SM. Gate seems iffy. Not that I expect gate to not do what your saying, just that seems like the unit is over reliant on psychic powers. I mean, you are trying to get invisibility and gate off, plus draigo has a few others should the unit expect to get in melee. There is also the possibility of DS defenses, though I agree that gate negates many of those by not placing the unit in reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I agree, looks like a nasty unit, but at the same time, also looks like you could do a comparable amount of damage with a super heavy or entire army at that cost. I would tend to agree, hence why I don't run that unit. I think it's over-reliant on putting too many points into a single trick (that isn't even 100% reliable) in an environment where proliferation of targets is becoming more and more common. Gate seems iffy. Not that I expect gate to not do what your saying, just that seems like the unit is over reliant on psychic powers. I mean, you are trying to get invisibility and gate off, plus draigo has a few others should the unit expect to get in melee. There is also the possibility of DS defenses, though I agree that gate negates many of those by not placing the unit in reserve. Gate is necessary for the unit if you face anything resembling a competent opponent. Centurions are otherwise too slow and too short-ranged to take an effective part in the battle. The list is heavily reliant on psychic powers, certainly, and that's a major weakness- failing to get off Invis or Gate on a critical turn can spoil the game for it quite easily, as happened to the good Captain when he played me at the most recent Guardian Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainA Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Gate is necessary for the unit if you face anything resembling a competent opponent. Centurions are otherwise too slow and too short-ranged to take an effective part in the battle. The list is heavily reliant on psychic powers, certainly, and that's a major weakness- failing to get off Invis or Gate on a critical turn can spoil the game for it quite easily, as happened to the good Captain when he played me at the most recent Guardian Cup. I would also add that the terrain was very subpar for that table and I have no one buy myself to blame for that one! Seeming as how I put it all there! But to the point.....FW for the win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 It is an old way of thinking, but I'm impressed based on a unit's ability to earn back it's points. With a 900pt unit, I require an opponent to "feed" me 150pts of models per turn for 6 turns just to break even. Should be fine if they have a similarly constructed deathstar or superheavy, but MSU is going to really hurt. Those grav are also mid-range weapons, so I really rely on my opponent keeping things in range for me. See I think this is where the new edition has to change our construction of armies. With maelstrom I almost think you need 1/4 of your army solely concentrated on holding objectives and getting to them while the rest can consentrate on the killing objectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 See I think this is where the new edition has to change our construction of armies. With maelstrom I almost think you need 1/4 of your army solely concentrated on holding objectives and getting to them while the rest can consentrate on the killing objectives. Yeah, it could be outdated. But in terms of being impressed, that's where I'm coming from. Those RW black knights, in example, are an amazing unit at the 3-man level. Outflank, arrive near enemy storm wolf. Destroy it in a single turn of shooting. Another game, again outflanking. Arrive in IG player's backfield. Attack enemy mechanized artillery. Destroy a tank. Next turn, destroy another. Get charged, kill enemy unit with plasma overwatch, and so forth. In every game I've fielded them, I get more than my points back. Unit is amazing. That said, that unit doesn't do better with a larger unit size or any upgrades and the DA required to field it don't preform as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Wait, 3 BKs show up, and shoot 6 shots at an AV12 flier and kill it in one turn? You'd need either 3 results with 6 shots, or to roll 3 consecutive 6's with 1 shot to pull that off. lol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Wait, 3 BKs show up, and shoot 6 shots at an AV12 flier and kill it in one turn? You'd need either 3 results with 6 shots, or to roll 3 consecutive 6's with 1 shot to pull that off. lol? Mine might work above average for other players, though my results have been consistent. In math, we arrive and lob 6 TL shots at the bird. 1.83 hit. With that, I need a 5 to glance or a 6 to penetrate. If the pen, +1 on the damage roll. Mathhammer site says my odds are 10.2% to destroy the bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I would also add that the terrain was very subpar for that table and I have no one buy myself to blame for that one! Seeming as how I put it all there! Yeah, it was a little bit... minimalist in places, although to be quite honest not out of keeping with what I see at a lot of tournaments. It's just hard to cover 30+ tables in terrain, it turns out. And, as you said at the time, "That sure is a lot of rerolls." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Mine might work above average for other players, though my results have been consistent. In math, we arrive and lob 6 TL shots at the bird. 1.83 hit. With that, I need a 5 to glance or a 6 to penetrate. If the pen, +1 on the damage roll. Mathhammer site says my odds are 10.2% to destroy the bird. So yeah, with your 1 or 2 hits, you need a 6 to pen, and then a second 6 to kill it. Probably says each shot has about a .46% chance of getting an explosion. 100/6 16.67/6 2.77/6 .4629% Where you or they or whatever got to 10% is simply incorrect. Consistently hitting something that happens roughly 2.77%? Really? Your dice are effed if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 His odds to hit are actually 11/36, not 1/6, because they're Twin-Linked. I get a 0.849% chance of an Explosion per shot, and about a 5% chance of Exploding the thing with one of the 6 shots. That said, that's still somewhat worse than the odds of blowing it up with a single BS4 shot with an Icarus Lascannon, which is itself generally regarded as sub-par Anti-Air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 His odds to hit are actually 11/36, not 1/6, because they're Twin-Linked. I get a 0.849% chance of an Explosion per shot, and about a 5% chance of Exploding the thing with one of the 6 shots. That said, that's still somewhat worse than the odds of blowing it up with a single BS4 shot with an Icarus Lascannon, which is itself generally regarded as sub-par Anti-Air. I'm really not sure how that "mathhammer" site calculates things, but it is quick. I am not including jink. Perhaps that is where you differ? I will note that if I get an immobilized result, it defaults to crash and burn on a roll of 1-2 (page 85, flyers and immobilized results). So, 5-6 on the damage role is crash and burn, and 1/3 of a 4 result is also a crash and burn. Likewise, reducing it to zero hull points is the same as an explodes result for zooming flyers, as both result in a crash and burn result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 A 5 rolled on the pen chart gives you an immobilization, so 1/3 of those is a crash. A 4 doesn't do you any good, as that's just a weapon destroyed. 1-3 shaken 4 stunned 5 weapon 6 Immobilized 7+ wrecked At any rate, getting 3 results needing 6's and to hit and 5+ to glance/pen with 6 shots is highly unlikely. And to do it with 1 shot you have to roll 3 straight 6's or 2 6's and a 5, and then the other guy has to roll a 1-2. Saying that this is a normal result for you is ridiculous since if you roll like that all the time you'd never lose a game. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 I wasn't including Jink either. I did forget that 1/3 of Immobilized results will also kill it, but adding that in still only bumps the total up to about a 6.6% chance, even without Jinking. I don't trust any of the MathHammer calculators out there, I've seen most of them turn up blatantly wrong results at some point or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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