4 tyranid List Need only 1.. please vote

[Talonwinter]

I have to turn in my final list on the 19th of Sept. I have 4 list that I need some help pairing down. I do have a test tournament on the 19th as well so please

let me know which you like.

 

Warning this is a wall of text ::) . Sorry for this. I normally get this down two just 2 list, but School and family have left me a little behind.

I have been working on 4 list for a tournament. If you like you can see the rules below. Also if your in the area there are a few armies still available if you want to join.

 

The rule info for the tournament can be found here: www.40kambassadors.com/rules.php

 

The missions are unique and the are found here: www.40kambassadors.com/missions.php

 

 

List one is what I think is the one most people would go with as it has most of the popular models in it.
I will not do more then 3 Flyrants. So this is a list designed to have mass fire power. It is a null reserve style list For Tyranids.

This list has 64 twin-linked devourers in and all can be placed where you want it to be for the most part. It has good anti air with the extra crone in it. With the comes relay it should be able to handle most issues with reliable reserve rolls.

 

 

Downside no 2+ cover saves if starting on the table.

List One:

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]

Spore Mine Cluster [5x Spore Mine]

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

+ Fortification
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]

Hive Crone [Cluster Spines]

Mawloc
Mawloc

 

 

List two is more of a showcase of the Army book. Id does have the most scoring units with 13. It will give me the option to start everything on the table with 4- to a 2+ cover saves. I can also Null deploy with the list as well. If I do this I can still Defend objectives or block them off with the spore-field formation units.

List two:

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) +

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Haruspex [Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs]
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]

Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Toxicrene

+ Fortification +
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]

+ Formation
Sporefield
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [6x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]

+ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Alied Arms Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Mucolid Spore

Mawloc

While similar to list 2 this list has a fast response unit in the shrikes and the are kind of a counter Centurion unit as firing at them only wounds on a 5. They are all so good at dealing with unit coming out of drop pods. The shrikes and the Tox gives me two unit that can hurt a wraith Knight if he get close.( I know they are not the best unit but it still can hurt it.)
List 3:

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Haruspex (Adrenal Glands)
Venomthrope

Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster

[3x Spore Mine]
[3x Spore Mine]
Tyranid Shrike Brood
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Lashwhip & Boneswords, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Lashwhip & Boneswords, Toxin Sacs]

Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]Mawloc
Toxicrene

Fortification +
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++

Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Mucolid Spore

Mawloc

 

 

List 4 Is defensive with a solid back field and limited offense. This won last year but was looking at how thing have changed I am not sure who it will work now. It is a single Cad. With two venoms it can deploy in to different locations if needed. (Second Mission this could be useful.)

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Hive Guard [impaler Cannon]
Hive Guard [impaler Cannon]
Hive Guard [impaler Cannon]

Venomthrope
Venomthrope

Termagant Brood for Trevion [20x Fleshborer Termagant]
10x Devourer Termagant [10x Devourer]
Tervigon [Crushing Claws, Electroshock Grubs, Stinger Salvo]

Hive Crone
[3x Spore Mine]
Tyranid Shrike Brood
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Lashwhip & Boneswords, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs]
Tyranid Shrike [Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Lashwhip & Boneswords, Toxin Sacs]

Carnifex [Adrenal Glands, Spine Banks, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc

+ Fortification +
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]

Please post comments on which list you feel would be good or better. Any thought on any of the list would appreciated..

Please post a different list you feel would work better if you like.

[Guest]

Can bugs use the comms relay? I know they can't use the turrets....

[Talonwinter]

Can bugs use the comms relay? I know they can't use the turrets....

 

They can use everything now. That was last addition I believe where they couldn't.

Every tournament I have been going to has allowed it with no question.

[PumpkinHead]

I am not a fan of so many spores. But for pure face stomping I would go with list 1.

[Talonwinter]

I would run more spores if I had them. I am not a fan of the mawloc as I never hit with it.

 

as for Stomping it.. It can do that very wel  ​, when it all comes in together. I love playing VS white scars with this as I can pick how and what I hit killing the grav or other threats. I just think it would have some issues with the first mission and maybe the last one.

 

I think a balanced mix of attack of ground and air is the way to go.

[AbusePuppy]

I think list #1 is pretty easily the best of them, as it really leverages what Tyranids can do best. However, a couple small tweaks I might recommend- first of all, the Hive Crone isn't really doing much for you when you've already got triple-Flyrant, so that is likely something to pull. Instead, getting a Lictor (to guide in Deep Strikes) plus some Biovores (which make good support shooters) or a third Mawloc feels like a better plan overall. Alternately, you could add 1-2 Venomthropes plus the Lictor for cover save shenanigans.

 

You're gonna struggle with the missions, but that's just the way it is; Tyranids don't have much good scoring these days. You could swap one Carnifex for a unit of Termagants with mixed Fleshborers/Devourers (with the fleshies in front to soak up wounds and the devs in back to cause damage)- costs about the same, but gets you at least one ObSec unit. Not sure if it's right call, but just pointing out an option that might be helpful.

 

You may also think about giving the Tyrannocytes some Barbed Stranglers. While the upgrade isn't cheap, five large blasts per turn is actually pretty scary for a lot of units and could alleviate some issues with fighting hordes. On the other hand, if there's no IG player in the bracket, that may not be a huge deal (though there are gonna be at least Orks and CSM, maybe even Daemons.)

 

Wraithknights are... a problem. There's not a lot you can do about them, to be honest- Tyranids have very few solutions, and most of them are Forge World units. I'm not sure if there's anything you could really do to fight them without really hurting the rest of your list, and that's probably not worth it; you're only gonna see one Wraithknight player (at most), but in all honesty you are gonna see a Wraithknight if you fight the Eldar player.

[PumpkinHead]

You could even fit the deathleaper in your list if you take out the crone. Just to annoy people and guide in the mawlocs.

[Talonwinter]

I think list #1 is pretty easily the best of them, as it really leverages what Tyranids can do best. However, a couple small tweaks I might recommend- first of all, the Hive Crone isn't really doing much for you when you've already got triple-Flyrant, so that is likely something to pull. Instead, getting a Lictor (to guide in Deep Strikes) plus some Biovores (which make good support shooters) or a third Mawloc feels like a better plan overall. Alternately, you could add 1-2 Venomthropes plus the Lictor for cover save shenanigans.

 

You're gonna struggle with the missions, but that's just the way it is; Tyranids don't have much good scoring these days. You could swap one Carnifex for a unit of Termagants with mixed Fleshborers/Devourers (with the fleshies in front to soak up wounds and the devs in back to cause damage)- costs about the same, but gets you at least one ObSec unit. Not sure if it's right call, but just pointing out an option that might be helpful.

 

You may also think about giving the Tyrannocytes some Barbed Stranglers. While the upgrade isn't cheap, five large blasts per turn is actually pretty scary for a lot of units and could alleviate some issues with fighting hordes. On the other hand, if there's no IG player in the bracket, that may not be a huge deal (though there are gonna be at least Orks and CSM, maybe even Daemons.)

 

Wraithknights are... a problem. There's not a lot you can do about them, to be honest- Tyranids have very few solutions, and most of them are Forge World units. I'm not sure if there's anything you could really do to fight them without really hurting the rest of your list, and that's probably not worth it; you're only gonna see one Wraithknight player (at most), but in all honesty you are gonna see a Wraithknight if you fight the Eldar player.

I have played this list in the past and it can be very brutal. The crone is their more for Crons and if there is a flyier I can have the flyrants go after something else. I am not a fan of Mawloc personal. Yes they are the cheapest MC in our book. But they are just bad in my eye as they are random in their out put. They are either great or nothing. But they keep people honest.

I have to pray for luck with the wraith knight honestly. Mass fire power and bad rolls is my only hope. LOL

 

I won last year with Tyranids with a solid ground force. Dealing with the dreaded  Necron MSS lords on a barge, I got lucky and someone killed the Wave Serpent Spam Eldar before I had to face Him. I faced Crons in the First round and pulled out a win by 1 point. Tyranids can have good ground forces. People just play5 tyrants not thinking how to use anything else. In Portland Guarden games InControl only went 3-2 with a list. I ran a list with Ground and still went 3-2 as well. In that tournament InControl and a Cron player where my bane. If I had the models I think I would try a Hoard style army as the Wriath Knight is not such a issue with that type of army.

 

Here's the list I won last year with. http://www.40kambassadors.com/files/2014/Tyranids.pdf

 

 

It was not optimal but it worked really well.

You could even fit the deathleaper in your list if you take out the crone. Just to annoy people and guide in the mawlocs.

That is a interesting option I have not played with Him in a long time. It would be fun that's for sure.

[AbusePuppy]

I have played this list in the past and it can be very brutal. The crone is their more for Crons and if there is a flyier I can have the flyrants go after something else. I am not a fan of Mawloc personal. Yes they are the cheapest MC in our book. But they are just bad in my eye as they are random in their out put. They are either great or nothing. But they keep people honest.

I have to pray for luck with the wraith knight honestly. Mass fire power and bad rolls is my only hope. LOL

 

Yeah, I saw your win last year (grats, btw.) Tyranid ground forces aren't ignorable- and I don't think five Flyrants would be a good setup for an army, either, as it means you would pretty much just lose to Tau every time (due to Skyrays) and struggle heavily with the objective missions.

 

Mawlocs are cheap MCs, yeah, and they will smash a tank or basic infantry squad just about as hard as a Carnifex or anything else will. Hit and Run as well as the ability to reburrow means they are incredibly mobile and will screw up the day of anyone trying to castle up against you. They are pretty unreliable, to be sure, but they are cheap and flexible enough that I don't feel that's a crippling problem.

[Talonwinter]

Unfotenaly Mawlocs are terrable at killing tanks even rhinos. 5 man squads are not to bad but with 3 attacks and ws 3 they are not all that killey when you need them to be.

The carafex, mawloc, and a couple more MC need to have one more attack and WS in my mind.

 

It should be interesting to see which way to go. With the how the mission are set up a 3rd mawloc is a no go because I need a fast attack slot that is hard to kill to keep from giving free points away. The crone is decent vs eldar bikes as it can move just as fast and can hit most of the unit. lol and it stands a good chance at hurting the wraith knight for giggles with vector-strike. Wish we still had d3+1 vs ground units. You would see crones in every list as a count to WK. lol GW missed the ball on that one.

[Guest]

Unfotenaly Mawlocs are terrable at killing tanks even rhinos.

Ignoring the spelling, why are Mawlocs terrible at killing tanks? They should have smash, so their melee can be s10 ap2 with re-rolls to hit and pen, even if they get only a few attacks.

 

I understand issues with AV14 and such, but rhinos should be easy enough to pen with a mawloc. And it's not like the rhinos can hit back....

[AbusePuppy]

The Tyrants kill the Rhinos; the Mawlocs clean up after. And a Mawloc is just as good as any other S6 MC (which is to say most MCs) at killing tanks in melee.

 

I think the problem with Carnifexes et al in combat is less number of attacks and more crappy other stats- WS4 I2 for a dedicated melee beast, really? Hey, here's an idea, GW- take the Genestealer's WS6 and graft it onto the Haruspex or something where it does some actual good.

 

I wouldn't over-focus on the "kill all units of a type" mission; for one, it's only one of the four battles you'll fight. For two, taking more of one slot and less (or none) of another is actually a bit deceptive- while the mission text suggests that doing so is a bad idea (because you give up free points), in reality it means that rather than having, say, two medium-difficult sets of points to get you have one easy and one difficult, which actually works out to be about the same overall.

 

Crones with d3+|1 vectors aren't really a counter to Wraithknights. They weren't back in 6E and they wouldn't be now, for several reasons; I mean, for one, the Wraithcannons pop them instantly on a hit. For two, T5/4+ gets vaporized by Scatter Bikes even when flying. And for three, the realities of maneuvering a FMC mean that you're gonna get one Vector on the guy and then probably have to fly off the table to get the next one (and you're only averaging one wound, less if they have the invuln.)

 

I hope the Harpy/Crone get the same treatment as the DA flyers did in the next book- they're kinda a mess right now.

[Talonwinter]

Ignoring the spelling, why are Mawlocs terrible at killing tanks? They should have smash, so their melee can be s10 ap2 with re-rolls to hit and pen, even if they get only a few attacks.

 

I understand issues with AV14 and such, but rhinos should be easy enough to pen with a mawloc. And it's not like the rhinos can hit back....

Sorry about the spelling. I been up way to long by then.

 

Smash is one attack only. You get a re-roll to pen. That's it. Smash had the Nerf bat taken to it big time from last edition. It made walkers really good vs Tyranid MC now. If you can charge a TMC with a walker you will win most of the time.

 

The likely hood of killing a rhino in the charge is really low with 4 attacks and str 6 on the mawloc. As abusepuppy said the tyrants kill the tank with shooting and  the mawloc hope's to hit coming in to get the guys that fall out.

 

Heck I like to see WS -5 on the Haruspex, Tox, or the Carnifex( Really I just like ap2 on his impact hit and I would be okwith its WS-3 since he is more of a brute then others.)

[Lord Hanaur]

Wraithknights are... a problem. There's not a lot you can do about them, to be honest- Tyranids have very few solutions, and most of them are Forge World units. I'm not sure if there's anything you could really do to fight them without really hurting the rest of your list, and that's probably not worth it; you're only gonna see one Wraithknight player (at most), but in all honesty you are gonna see a Wraithknight if you fight the Eldar player.

His Exocrine in list two could help.  List two might be the best in case he hits a WraithKnight sized snag.

 

EDIT:  OOPS.  Just realized it says Toxicrene.

[Guest]

Sorry about the spelling. I been up way to long by then.

 

Smash is one attack only. You get a re-roll to pen. That's it. Smash had the Nerf bat taken to it big time from last edition. It made walkers really good vs Tyranid MC now. If you can charge a TMC with a walker you will win most of the time.

 

The likely hood of killing a rhino in the charge is really low with 4 attacks and str 6 on the mawloc. As abusepuppy said the tyrants kill the tank with shooting and  the mawloc hope's to hit coming in to get the guys that fall out.

 

Heck I like to see WS -5 on the Haruspex, Tox, or the Carnifex( Really I just like ap2 on his impact hit and I would be okwith its WS-3 since he is more of a brute then others.)

Lol...you think walkers are amazing against TMCs...Yeah, they aren't. Some walkers, maybe, but most are going to be rather iffy against TMCs.

 

Basically, it boils down to most TMCs having 4+ wounds and T6, vs most walkers lacking invulnerable saves and relying on the vehicle damage table to keep them alive with their meager 2-3 hull points. All the MC needs is a 6 on the damage table and they pop the walker without any saves (unless they are the rare walker with an invulnerable save).

 

I will note, smash really needed a nerf.

 

Okay, so Mawloc charging rhino. Why not...

 

Stock Mawloc charges the front of a rhino. Hammer of wraith auto-hits once at S6. 5s to glance/pen, so .33 HP lost.

 

Using the normal attacks, 4 swings, hitting on 3s, 2.66 hits, 4s to glance/pen, so 1.33 HP lost (1.66 with hammer)

 

Instead, using Smash, 1 swing, hitting on 3s, .66 hits, auto-pen (S10 vs av10), 1 HP lost.

 

So, yeah, stock mawloc is very lacking against rhinos.

 

That said, he's got two additional options if you are possessed to kit him for rhino destruction...

 

Mawloc with Adrenal glands (replacing normal attacks/smash as above) 4 swings, hitting 3s, 2.66 hits, 3s to glance/pen, 1.54-ish HP lost (1.87 with hammer).

 

Adrenal does nothing to smash...

 

The other option is the Prehensile Pincer, which is an addition attack at fix S6, which is resolved in addition to normal, smash, or adrenal attacks as above, plus hammer.

 

So Pincer hits on 3s, so .66 hits, and .33 will glance/pen the rear armor of the rhino (.33 hp, so 1.99 HP lost with normal attacks+hammer, 1.66 with smash+hammer, and 2.1 with adrenal+hammer).

 

Shoddy for the points, yes, but the mawloc isn't exactly designed for rhino hunting.

[Guest]

 As for Wraithknights, yeah, I've got no clue how bugs are supposed to cope with that. To be fair, marines can only cope with them due to those cheesy grav weapons which are "GW-blessed" poisoned weapons. Without grav, SM have trouble killing wraithknights with less than 300pts of models/units

 

Crones with d3+|1 vectors aren't really a counter to Wraithknights. They weren't back in 6E and they wouldn't be now, for several reasons; I mean, for one, the Wraithcannons pop them instantly on a hit. For two, T5/4+ gets vaporized by Scatter Bikes even when flying. And for three, the realities of maneuvering a FMC mean that you're gonna get one Vector on the guy and then probably have to fly off the table to get the next one (and you're only averaging one wound, less if they have the invuln.)

 

In ITC, Wraith cannons won't pop them instantly due to the ITC ruling regarding Destroyer weapons not counting as S10 for ID purposes - this may have changed. They'll still pop them very quickly....

 

I very much agree with point 2, though, so point one being incorrect is rather meaningless.

 

Point 3 is also very valid.

[AbusePuppy]

Str D weapons count as Str 10 again (unless otherwise specified)- this was changed in the most recent ITC update. They also reverted the 2-5 result on the Destroyer table to being d3 HP/wounds (although the 6 result is "only" 3 HP/wounds still.)

[Guest]

Str D weapons count as Str 10 again (unless otherwise specified)- this was changed in the most recent ITC update. They also reverted the 2-5 result on the Destroyer table to being d3 HP/wounds (although the 6 result is "only" 3 HP/wounds still.)

Huh...well, that's a bad change for bugs and princes...

[Talonwinter]

Lol...you think walkers are amazing against TMCs...Yeah, they aren't. Some walkers, maybe, but most are going to be rather iffy against TMCs.

 

Basically, it boils down to most TMCs having 4+ wounds and T6, vs most walkers lacking invulnerable saves and relying on the vehicle damage table to keep them alive with their meager 2-3 hull points. All the MC needs is a 6 on the damage table and they pop the walker without any saves (unless they are the rare walker with an invulnerable save).

 

I will note, smash really needed a nerf.

 

 

 

Hears my view on walkers. The SM model has 4 base attach at st10 that swing at initiative of the walker. The are armor 12 which means I wound on 6's with all but two MC. TMC that can hurt it tend to be slower so the get hit first. Walkers also have a higher weapon skill so they are harder to hit and they hit more.

TMC with crushing claws are the exception to this. Except with they are slower. they may survive but with only a wound left...maybe.

 

Yes a walker can be killed with a lucky 6. Down side is I have to be lucky to get it. with hitting on 4 with 1 attack I will most likely do one hull point before a 4-6 wound MC is dead. Walkers are very good vs ground base TMC. A trygon prime should eat a base walker for lunch. The prime cost as much as a land raider, but falls to 120-160 walker like a leaf in the wind.

 

Smash was already a nerf to how MC worked in 5th it halved MC attacks. Needing a 6 to explode hurt it even more in 7th. It didn't need to go to 1 attack. VS IK all my MC are a joke. Even my GMC aren't a threat in CC VS them.

[Lord Hanaur]

Str D weapons count as Str 10 again (unless otherwise specified)- this was changed in the most recent ITC update. They also reverted the 2-5 result on the Destroyer table to being d3 HP/wounds (although the 6 result is "only" 3 HP/wounds still.)

Wont matter for this tournament so that doesnt hep him.

[Guest]

Hears my view on walkers. The SM model has 4 base attach at st10 that swing at initiative of the walker. The are armor 12 which means I wound on 6's with all but two MC. TMC that can hurt it tend to be slower so the get hit first. Walkers also have a higher weapon skill so they are harder to hit and they hit more.

TMC with crushing claws are the exception to this. Except with they are slower. they may survive but with only a wound left...maybe.

 

Yes a walker can be killed with a lucky 6. Down side is I have to be lucky to get it. with hitting on 4 with 1 attack I will most likely do one hull point before a 4-6 wound MC is dead. Walkers are very good vs ground base TMC. A trygon prime should eat a base walker for lunch. The prime cost as much as a land raider, but falls to 120-160 walker like a leaf in the wind.

 

Smash was already a nerf to how MC worked in 5th it halved MC attacks. Needing a 6 to explode hurt it even more in 7th. It didn't need to go to 1 attack. VS IK all my MC are a joke. Even my GMC aren't a threat in CC VS them.

Always get's me that I say "walker" and players hear "SM Dreadnought" exclusively. It's not just you, this one is common.

 

Okay, so SM Dreadnougnt vs tyranid MCs.

 

So, for starters, the SM dread is a pretty good match up for a tyranid carnifex, in both points and function. Current SM dreads clock in at about 100pts base, which is dirt cheap, but it's likely that the fexen will be cheaper when they have the newer codex...go GW power creep. Fexen are 120pts base.

 

If the Dread get's the charge, it's got hammer at intiative 10 and S6. Wounding on 4s, .5 wounds, 0.16 unsaved wounds

Then at iniative 4, it has 5 swings. It will hit on 3s, so 3.33 hits. Of those, it's S10, so it will wound on 2s, leaving 2.77 unsaved wounds (assuming fexen lacks FNP). Carnifex has 4 wounds, so it will likely survive the assault with 1 wound remaining.

 

On the return swing, the Carnifex has 4 attacks (stock version has two sets of scything talons). These hit on 4s, so 2 hits. S9 base vs av12 means it needs 3s to glance, so 1 pen and .33 glances is about right. That pen has a 1/6 chance to kill the dread outright.

 

It is very notable that the vehicle damage table for walkers is very unforgiving. Getting immobilized will make enemies in assault resolve attacks against the walker's rear armor, instead of the front. A stunned or immobilized result will also make the walker attack with 1 less attack in the following assault phase. For SM dreadnoughts in particular, getting a weapon destroyer result means a 50% chance to lose their high strength and low ap in a go (since they only have that one power fist).

 

Depending on the results of that pen, the combat may swing wildly in different directions. Fexen is probably dead here, as he has 1 wound left and goes second.

 

Now the otherway, Fex charges the Dread.

 

Ignoring the overwatch (since I didn't shoot prior to the charge before), fex has d3 hammer of wrath at base strength 9 and resolved at initiative 10. Yeah.... So we'll say 2 hammer of wrath attacks. They auto-hit. Fex needs 3s to glance and 4s to pen. Again, looking at 1 pen and .33 glances. That said, unlike before, this really matters because the damage table is resolved prior to the dread getting to swing.

 

So if destroyed, dread doesn't swing.

 

If shaken or weapon destroyed (ranged weapon removed) or just wasn't penned, 4 swings, dread hits on 3s, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds, 2.22 unsaved.

 

If stunned or Immobilized, 3 swings, dread hits on 3s, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.66 unsaved

 

If weapon destroyed (power fist removed), 4 swings, hits on 3s, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.88 unsaved wounds.

 

In all cases, Fexen survives to swing at inatitive 2. He's got 5 swings (3 base, 2 melee weapons, charge), hits on 4s, 2.5 hits

 

If enemy SM dreadnought was immobilized via fexen hammer of wrath, his S9 resolves against the walker's rear av10. So glancing on 1s and pens on 2s, 0.25 glances, and 2.25 pens. Between hammer and these, enemy dread has lost enough HP to be dead (only 3 HP).

 

If enemy SM dreadnought was not imoblized via fexen hammer of wraith. his S9 resolves against the walker's front av12. So glances on 3s and pens on 4s again. So 1.25 pens and .25 glances. With the hammer above, that's 2.25 total pens and .83 total glances, which means the walker could still yet live.

 

So, maybe you misread before, but I describe melee with TMCs and walkers as iffy. This combat is iffy. Luck plays in far too much and both units likely emerge crippled. I will note that neither unit has assault grenades, so charges through cover present a whole new mathhammer experience.

[WestRider]

 

 

but it's likely that the fexen will be cheaper when they have the newer codex...go GW power creep. Fexen are 120pts base.

 

That's not power creep. That's just recovery from nerf-hammerage. That exact Fex was 101 Points in 4th Ed, and just about everything else has come down in cost (or increased in power) since then.

[Lord Hanaur]

which list did you say he should go with?

[Talonwinter]

Always get's me that I say "walker" and players hear "SM Dreadnought" exclusively. It's not just you, this one is common.

 

Okay, so SM Dreadnougnt vs tyranid MCs.

 

So, for starters, the SM dread is a pretty good match up for a tyranid carnifex, in both points and function. Current SM dreads clock in at about 100pts base, which is dirt cheap, but it's likely that the fexen will be cheaper when they have the newer codex...go GW power creep. Fexen are 120pts base.

 

If the Dread get's the charge, it's got hammer at intiative 10 and S6. Wounding on 4s, .5 wounds, 0.16 unsaved wounds

Then at iniative 4, it has 5 swings. It will hit on 3s, so 3.33 hits. Of those, it's S10, so it will wound on 2s, leaving 2.77 unsaved wounds (assuming fexen lacks FNP). Carnifex has 4 wounds, so it will likely survive the assault with 1 wound remaining.

 

On the return swing, the Carnifex has 4 attacks (stock version has two sets of scything talons). These hit on 4s, so 2 hits. S9 base vs av12 means it needs 3s to glance, so 1 pen and .33 glances is about right. That pen has a 1/6 chance to kill the dread outright.

 

It is very notable that the vehicle damage table for walkers is very unforgiving. Getting immobilized will make enemies in assault resolve attacks against the walker's rear armor, instead of the front. A stunned or immobilized result will also make the walker attack with 1 less attack in the following assault phase. For SM dreadnoughts in particular, getting a weapon destroyer result means a 50% chance to lose their high strength and low ap in a go (since they only have that one power fist).

 

Depending on the results of that pen, the combat may swing wildly in different directions. Fexen is probably dead here, as he has 1 wound left and goes second.

 

Now the otherway, Fex charges the Dread.

 

Ignoring the overwatch (since I didn't shoot prior to the charge before), fex has d3 hammer of wrath at base strength 9 and resolved at initiative 10. Yeah.... So we'll say 2 hammer of wrath attacks. They auto-hit. Fex needs 3s to glance and 4s to pen. Again, looking at 1 pen and .33 glances. That said, unlike before, this really matters because the damage table is resolved prior to the dread getting to swing.

 

So if destroyed, dread doesn't swing.

 

If shaken or weapon destroyed (ranged weapon removed) or just wasn't penned, 4 swings, dread hits on 3s, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds, 2.22 unsaved.

 

If stunned or Immobilized, 3 swings, dread hits on 3s, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.66 unsaved

 

If weapon destroyed (power fist removed), 4 swings, hits on 3s, 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.88 unsaved wounds.

 

In all cases, Fexen survives to swing at inatitive 2. He's got 5 swings (3 base, 2 melee weapons, charge), hits on 4s, 2.5 hits

 

If enemy SM dreadnought was immobilized via fexen hammer of wrath, his S9 resolves against the walker's rear av10. So glancing on 1s and pens on 2s, 0.25 glances, and 2.25 pens. Between hammer and these, enemy dread has lost enough HP to be dead (only 3 HP).

 

If enemy SM dreadnought was not imoblized via fexen hammer of wraith. his S9 resolves against the walker's front av12. So glances on 3s and pens on 4s again. So 1.25 pens and .25 glances. With the hammer above, that's 2.25 total pens and .83 total glances, which means the walker could still yet live.

 

So, maybe you misread before, but I describe melee with TMCs and walkers as iffy. This combat is iffy. Luck plays in far too much and both units likely emerge crippled. I will note that neither unit has assault grenades, so charges through cover present a whole new mathhammer experience.

paxmiles thanks for the comments. Your math is a little off but I think that is because you don't play Tyranids. Never mind I see no upgrades.( Need to sleep before answering.

The impact hits are ap - so the dread will always attack back.

The Fex's are the exception in the debate we are talking about. Every other TMC is str 5-6. Fexs normally are kitted out for shooting so don't have the extra attack. You also don't see them in many list anymore because they are very slow. You could drop them in like I do.

Still other then Fex which as you have shown depends on who charges. TMC lose to most walkers. I hate the SW walkers with the 3+ inv. save. Yes it has less attacks but it stop most of the damage coming in.

 

That's not power creep. That's just recovery from nerf-hammerage. That exact Fex was 101 Points in 4th Ed, and just about everything else has come down in cost (or increased in power) since then.

Can't wait to see how GW does the next Codex. I would love to make a 4th Ed army list. I only heard rumors about how good that book was. All the bio-morph option sounded cool. It be fun to see if they had stayed in the book if it would be better today.

 

which list did you say he should go with?

As was asked above. What list did you pick as a contender for the tournament? Got caught up talking about walkers vs MC that I forgot.

 

Westrider what was your pick as well?

 

I know asking the DK player what he thinks will give him issues.... Scary

[Guest]

Forgot about the ap- on the hammer.

 

As for the carn, it's the closest TMC equivalent to a dreadnought. Doesn't really seem fair to compare a dread to the other TMCs, as those are just too different.