Rapier batteries and their use in 40k

[derek]

So i am drawn to these models just because i think thsyre cool looking. I hear they're pretty good if you take certain ones but as im not into the what's the best combo stuff i am curious does anyone run them in the other varieties such as the quad mortar or quad heavy bolter?

[Guest]

So i am drawn to these models just because i think thsyre cool looking. I hear they're pretty good if you take certain ones but as im not into the what's the best combo stuff i am curious does anyone run them in the other varieties such as the quad mortar or quad heavy bolter?

Haven't actually done the variants, though I did look into it.

 

Rapier is basically a decent lascannon devastator variant which is less flexible due to the artillery rules (like being unable to charge). Unit also lacks squad command, so their base leadership 8 is all you get without IC attachment.

 

That said, they are considerably more durable than lascannon devastators, and much more likely to get results against vehicles.

 

I tried them once, opponent ended up being orks, so they were a total waste. Yeah, I popped AV10 trukks, but that isn't something I needed the rapiers for. I'll have to give them another go in the future.

 

Main drawback for me is that I don't run SM, so I don't get my DA or BA chapter tactics equivelent rules on these models, despite them counting as DA/BA when purchased in a DA formation/detachment.

[WestRider]

I'm working on building a few with swappable weapons from the tracks of Kataphron servitors. Planning on running them in my DA along with a Hammer of Caliban Formation, and having the Techmarine from the Hammer get out and Join them so they get Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter from him.

 

As a general thing, Artillery Units are also a decent place to stash your Warlord. Grav makes the Marine ones less good than the Ork or Eldar versions, but T7 still wards off a lot of fire.

[BrainFireBob]

Chaos reaper battery has awesome buzz

[WestRider]

Chaos reaper battery has awesome buzz

I thought Chaos got a Hades Autocannon Rapier, not a Reaper. Either way, it's good, yeah.

[derek]

I was looking at the quad mortar because they seem really good. I was also looking at the heavy bolter ones because well i like the heavy bolter for the volume of fire i know it doesn't achieve much in the at department but it achieves a good amount for anti infantry

[Guest]

I'm working on building a few with swappable weapons from the tracks of Kataphron servitors. Planning on running them in my DA along with a Hammer of Caliban Formation, and having the Techmarine from the Hammer get out and Join them so they get Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter from him.

 

As a general thing, Artillery Units are also a decent place to stash your Warlord. Grav makes the Marine ones less good than the Ork or Eldar versions, but T7 still wards off a lot of fire.

Yes and no with artillery units and warlords. The artillery rules can really screw up a warlord in some circumstances. Being unable to charge, and "sometimes" unable to move is a real issue. The simple reality that the Rapiers can't be transported by any SM vehicle or embarked inside any building is also annoying.

 

On a side note, if using battlescribe, their points are wrong on the rapier battery and have been for some time. They list the stock 40pts per gun correctly, but they don't include the +15pts to upgrade the stock quad heavy bolter for a rapier. Rapiers are 55pts per gun (and 2 crew).

 

In terms of viability, I think the lascannon devastators are probably a better unit for that techmarine, purely for the 12" of range and ability to embark.

[derek]

You could definitely fit 1 rapier in a drop pod it only counts as 3 models unless extremely bulky is 4 then you could still squeeze 2 in there

[Guest]

You could definitely fit 1 rapier in a drop pod it only counts as 3 models unless extremely bulky is 4 then you could still squeeze 2 in there

The bulky (variant) rule is not the issue.

 

The issue is that it's not an infantry unit. They are artillery, so unless the transport/building says specifically that it can transport artillery, they cannot.

[derek]

Drop pods

[derek]

Storm ravens and storm eagles could do it

[AbusePuppy]

No, they can't. Only infantry models can embark on a transport, unless the transport explicitly says otherwise. Drop Pods have special exceptions for Dreadnoughts and Thunderfire Cannons, but not for Rapier Batteries.

[derek]

Hm ok maybe i misunderstood what i read then.

[derek]

So ok instead of disputing that one issue and besides the laser destroyer are there any worth while uses for the batteries

[Guest]

So ok instead of disputing that one issue and besides the laser destroyer are there any worth while uses for the batteries

They're not bad, by any means. And even if they can't embark in a building, you can still put them on the battlements of a building (space allowing).

 

I'm not a fan of attached ICs, but they are otherwise strong options. The Rapier gun in particular, is one of the cheaper, Viable SM AT options. Against AV13 without saves, a single Rapier Battery is the rough equivalent of 4 lascannon devastators. I think the Rapier Battery shines in MSU tactics, with only a single weapon crew.

 

The Heavy Bolter Variant has really strong potential with support from a Divination Psyker for misfortune rending (Psyker doesn't need to be attached for misfotune). Otherwise, it's a strong anti-horde option. The heavy bolter versions are the one's I'd take in units of 3.

 

Both versions are also strong justification for abilities which grant fearless or re-rolls on morale without requiring an attached IC.

 

I will note that the Quad Mortar is not a Rapier upgrade option, but has it's own entry. Batteries are 60pts each and that one is Experimental (which has just been made ITC legal). It is a strong artillery option for anti-tank armor pen, but lacks AP and won't deny MEQ armor saves.

 

Rules are found here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/RapierQuadMortar40k.pdf

 

Extremely notable is that the AT variant (Shatter) is NOT a barrage weapon, so despite S8 ap4 with re-rolls on armor pen, it's stuck shooting a the direction it faces.

 

Quad Mortar is a sweet option, no question, but none of the above weapons are broken or underpriced.

[Aventine]

No, they can't. Only infantry models can embark on a transport, unless the transport explicitly says otherwise. Drop Pods have special exceptions for Dreadnoughts and Thunderfire Cannons, but not for Rapier Batteries.

 

It may be slightly relevant that Rapiers do have that exception in Heresy. RAI if not RAW.

[WestRider]

Yes and no with artillery units and warlords. The artillery rules can really screw up a warlord in some circumstances. Being unable to charge, and "sometimes" unable to move is a real issue. The simple reality that the Rapiers can't be transported by any SM vehicle or embarked inside any building is also annoying.

 

In terms of viability, I think the lascannon devastators are probably a better unit for that techmarine, purely for the 12" of range and ability to embark.

Warlord: I would be using this option for a cheap Warlord who's not really expected to do much except not give up the VP. A Librarian to just sit there and throw Div buffs on the Battery, or the Techmarine from the Hammer, for instance.

 

If I want an aggressive Warlord who's going to be Charging at some point, of course I'm sticking him in some other Unit.

[Guest]

Warlord: I would be using this option for a cheap Warlord who's not really expected to do much except not give up the VP. A Librarian to just sit there and throw Div buffs on the Battery, or the Techmarine from the Hammer, for instance.

 

If I want an aggressive Warlord who's going to be Charging at some point, of course I'm sticking him in some other Unit.

Most certainly player preference, but seems like a waste of the libby/techmarine. But certainly, to each their own.

[WestRider]

How is that a waste? The Libby is still tossing around buff powers in my backfield, the Techmarine is buffing the Battery and still has freedom to move around enough to repair the nearer Tanks in the Hammer (or other backfield Tanks if I'm playing a big enough Game for them) if needed. They're using the abilities that are unique to them and are what they do best, plus keeping the WL VP fairly safe. What else do they need to do to be worth 65 Points?

[Guest]

How is that a waste? The Libby is still tossing around buff powers in my backfield, the Techmarine is buffing the Battery and still has freedom to move around enough to repair the nearer Tanks in the Hammer (or other backfield Tanks if I'm playing a big enough Game for them) if needed. They're using the abilities that are unique to them and are what they do best, plus keeping the WL VP fairly safe. What else do they need to do to be worth 65 Points?

Like I said, to each their own. I think it's a waste, but you don't have to.

 

As for my reasoning, I don't think the warlord is very safe like that. Artillery units are pretty easy to kill, especially if your opponent makes them very inviting targets. The artillery rules are rather crippling, and the rapier only has 36" of range, which is neat, but not exactly a backfield unit unless you can convince the opponent to come to you.

 

I will say that for points, the unit is about as durable as any other of about the same cost. They're basically a 5-man terminator squad in durability (and I'm not thinking storm shields). It's decent, but I'd hardly consider my warlord secure.

 

But, again, player preference. Just because I wouldn't field it one way because it wouldn't work for me, doesn't mean it can't work for you within the way you'd play.

 

Anyway, with regard to the rapier weapons themselves, the main issue is a lack of targets that need 3 TL lascannons with the ordnance rule. Most games, your devastator squads, sitting 12" further back, will be just as, if not more effective. Even against MCs, the stock lascannons will be more effective most of the time (4 shots including a signum Vs 3 shots TL).

 

I run into the same issue with that Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer. The tank is pointed perfectly, but I need at least 3 enemy super heavies in every game to justify it's presence.

 

I have advocated the single rapier battery. That is viable. Mind you, it's just an MM attack bike that trades mobility for durability. I wouldn't attach and IC to that, but at 55pts, it's fine if it dies after only a single vehicle destroyed. Bigger units need more impressive kills to justify themselves, and that's the main issue.

[WestRider]

Seriously, dude, what am I wasting? What else would I be doing with that Librarian/Techmarine?

 

A full Squad of 3 Laser Destroyers actually sounds pretty nice against the Ghost Arks and Soul Grinders I go up against fairly often. That said, I am making them swappable, so I could just as easily do Quad Heavy Bolters or Quad Mortars.

 

What are your Opponents running that kills your Artillery that fast? A dozen T7 3+ Wounds with 4+ (or 3+ if I've got a good Ruin) Cover doesn't go down terribly fast in my experience to anything short of massed Grav.

 

I haven't felt 36" to be a particularly short range in a while. Sometimes it can get frustrating in Hammer and Anvil, but generally, my ability to place ~half the Objectives in midfield means my Opponent has to come toward me to some extent. Also, the Devs may be longer-ranged, but they're only 15 Points cheaper for a min Dev Squad compared to a max Laser Destroyer Squad, and 5 T4 Wounds go down way faster than 12 T7 Wounds.

[Guest]

They don't have a dozen wounds. Yeah, 2 per gun and 2 crew per gun, but recall that removing the crew removes the guns and removing the guns removes any point in the crew. The guns can't apply their wounds to assault or to morale checks. You also can't allocate wounds to the guns via look out sir. They have effectively 6 wounds. That are t7 against shooting and t4 in assault.

 

I kill 2 crew, you take a moral check. At 4 crew dead, you lose the ability to fire one of the guns and are unable to move in the movement phase (and you can't just ditch the guns if they don't die and you don't flee). Just because I resolve against the toughness of the guns, doesn't mean the models removed start with the guns.

 

As for 36" vs 48" the main difference isn't that you are out of range, it's that the opponent can close the distance an entire turn sooner. Artillery units are laughably weak in assault. You could deploy further back, but then you flee off the table in death and they can stay out of range on a normal table.

 

The twin linking is neat, but it's less shots, which means less potential damage. Your also paying to twin-link them, even when you don't need it. Again, that Ordnance rule is neat too, but you often pay for it when it isn't needed (like against non-vehicles and AV10).

 

Though the above is all hypothetical, especially since my death company isn't built yet (been slacking).

 

My common solution would be to Deep Strike a FW siege dreadnought in a dreadnought drop pod. I'd fire two flame templates (Heavy flamer and flamestorm cannon) via the open topped transport I arrived inside (dreadpod). I would not get out, though I'd probably try to place it so it interfered with your fire lanes. I would probably not kill you, but even if you succeeded in damaging the pod, the model would get out and charge you next turn. Then, even if I didn't defeat you, you'd be stuck for the rest of the game in that assault. And that would be the end of your unit.

 

And for cost, the two units are pretty similar (170pts with pod).

 

Oh, and that siege dread is most certainly weaker than the regular DA dread. I run it because I like solutions to things that usually don't happen. The siege dread is a good solution to AV15 buildings, which are usually a big challenge without a dedicated solution. But the point is that the unit is by no means tailored for rapiers, as is rather underpowered, despite being a very practical solution.

 

The most fun solution would be that deathstrike, but I have really bad luck with that thing...

[Guest]

Seriously, dude, what am I wasting? What else would I be doing with that Librarian/Techmarine?

And on a side note, do you just run the libby/techy for the cheap HQ? You don't do anything with them?

[WestRider]

It's all about careful deployment to maintain effectiveness. Put one crewman from each gun out in front to eat the first three Wounds. Keep the guns somewhat staggered if possible, so they get hit one at a time. Once a given gun is taken out, its remaining crewman goes and stands in front of the rest as another ablative Wound. I will gradually lose shots, but they're gonna have to go through at least 11 Wounds at T7, and very possibly all 12, before they get to my Warlord.

 

I haven't done it with the Techmarine yet, but I have used a cheap Libby like that. He casts Prescience (or if I get a decent roll, Perfect Timing, Foreboding, or Misfortune) on things and tries not to die. Totally worth it just for the buffs he's handing out. Similar story with the Techmarine hanging out back there giving out Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter and fixing up damaged Weapons or Immobilized results.

[Guest]

It's all about careful deployment to maintain effectiveness. Put one crewman from each gun out in front to eat the first three Wounds. Keep the guns somewhat staggered if possible, so they get hit one at a time. Once a given gun is taken out, its remaining crewman goes and stands in front of the rest as another ablative Wound. I will gradually lose shots, but they're gonna have to go through at least 11 Wounds at T7, and very possibly all 12, before they get to my Warlord.

 

I haven't done it with the Techmarine yet, but I have used a cheap Libby like that. He casts Prescience (or if I get a decent roll, Perfect Timing, Foreboding, or Misfortune) on things and tries not to die. Totally worth it just for the buffs he's handing out. Similar story with the Techmarine hanging out back there giving out Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter and fixing up damaged Weapons or Immobilized results.

Moving crew members would make them snap their shooting.

 

Anyway, I see your logic, which does work, just isn't my style.