McNathanson Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 My experience so far is that there are a handful of Masters that are a cut above the rest. In our play group we've got Neverborn (Lilith and Zoraida mostly), Arcanists (Colette, Ramos, Rasputina), Guild (Sonnia, Perdita, LJ, Hoffman), Ressers (Molly, Seamus, Nicodem) and recently Outcasts for Leveticus. Of these, Lilith, Colette, Sonnia, Molly and Leveticus seem to be better suited to nearly all the strats, schemes and terrain layouts we try out on. We often find success with crews or elements of crews that "belong" to another master (e.g. Swamp Fiends, Ortegas, etc.) but are instead run with these 5 Masters. It's not QUITE an "anything you can do, I can do better" situation, but it seems like these Masters are nearly always a better choice than their faction's alternatives. Since we have only tried the above listed masters, I'm first of all curious if there are well-known "top tier" Masters/Crews that we are missing from our play group? I hear good things about Pandora, Marcus, Von Schill, Tara and maybe Mei Feng. And secondly, does this assessment line up with your experience, particularly the more seasoned tournament players among you? I am not trying to assert this with conviction, but rather sharing our observations from an admittedly-limited exposure. Thanks!Nathan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Power gamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 As I can tell, it very much hinges on how well a crew can sync up with a master. Some masters just lack crew selection options to make all-comer crews. Any, I am the Leveticus guy, and I'll be doing Hamelin too. Hamelin is outwardly limited by a small number of models with the blight condition. That said, Hamelin can certainly be fearsome without a blight focused list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted November 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Leveticus is a straight up beast. So far he and Lilith have my vote for most overtly powerful Masters, and his crew selection seems stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted November 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Power gamer. Some see it that way I'm sure :) My brothers and I like to explore the game balance of a new game. With WFB this led us to decide that it was so severely unbalanced that we ended up being some of the strongest proponents out there for NOT playing purely to win, but rather working with your opponent to create a fun, close game in a tournament setting. But the jury's out on whether Malifaux needs that kind of attention, or whether it can stand on it's own. It has a lot of basic mechanics that lend to good intrinsic balance (e.g. choosing crews after announcing factions, and choosing schemes after announcing crews). And there are some really good players that say it's pretty good balance wise, too! So I'm hopeful that we can just play it as it stands and still have fun, close games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Nicodem is top tier (because summoning fast hanged, punk zombies, and necropunks, or whatever else you need, is pretty dang good), and I'd personally put Kirai there too although maybe that's just cause Dan almost always beats me with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Things indicating he can't take a joke! Sheesh man! :P I think with Malifaux you don't need to worry about external balances as much assuming that the players do not pigeon hole their lists. If you always play your Lilith crew and I always play my... something squishy, then the game might be lopsided and unfun for us. But, if I see your crew and change up my next one a bit, and you do the same, it keeps things fresh and balances out. But back to the question, Seamus is pretty nasty, but I am not sure how he stacks up to the other ressers as I have played them all little to none under M2E. Gremlins, being my main faction (mostly due to paint and excessive fun), Somer is the king of all trades (forget Jack). You can center a crew on him to do any strats and schemes you want. Ophelia is like a mini Perdita. Her and her family are the outright deadly when used right, but probably a bit harder to use than the Perdita crew due to being a bit squishier. Brewmaster is a super crazy denier. He creates a bubble of "You can't do that" which is really odd, but fun, though I have not played him since he was finalized due to delays in model production (have them now, just haven't gotten them on the table yet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted November 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Sheesh man! :P I think with Malifaux you don't need to worry about external balances as much assuming that the players do not pigeon hole their lists. If you always play your Lilith crew and I always play my... something squishy, then the game might be lopsided and unfun for us. But, if I see your crew and change up my next one a bit, and you do the same, it keeps things fresh and balances out. But back to the question, Seamus is pretty nasty, but I am not sure how he stacks up to the other ressers as I have played them all little to none under M2E. Gremlins, being my main faction (mostly due to paint and excessive fun), Somer is the king of all trades (forget Jack). You can center a crew on him to do any strats and schemes you want. Ophelia is like a mini Perdita. Her and her family are the outright deadly when used right, but probably a bit harder to use than the Perdita crew due to being a bit squishier. Brewmaster is a super crazy denier. He creates a bubble of "You can't do that" which is really odd, but fun, though I have not played him since he was finalized due to delays in model production (have them now, just haven't gotten them on the table yet.) Oops I think you may have misread my tone... or maybe I mistyped my tone? Anyway I was just sayin', yeah I know it reads like Optimizing For the Win but it's really more of an exploration of the game's balance at this point! Sorry if I sounded harsh, I didn't *feel* harsh when I wrote it :) Great pointers on the Gremlins... those models are hilarious and my BFF/bestie/bestguybuddy just got them, so we'll have those little green basturds in the mix soon enough :) I have to admit (and again, just an early-exposure opinion!) that I'm a tad disappointed with the intra-faction balance... C Hoffman, for example, is so constrained by the range of his abilities and by the order in which is Robots have to activate that he's pretty much pants as far as I can tell. I mean I've won with him but it's SO much more work than with Sonnia or Perdita, which is in my opinion a good measure of a Master from a tournament perspective (i.e. high cognitive burden sucks because it's exhausting and leaves less bandwidth for looking at what your opponents is doing, etc.) Anyway are you at all interested in a few games to learn me on what Somer can do?? I'd love to get exposed to as many Masters as possible! I have a great table set up at my house if you're game for playing on a weeknight after dinner and kids bedtime... PM me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 More stuff indicating he still can't take a joke! Great pointers on the Gremlins... those models are hilarious and my BFF/bestie/bestguybuddy just got them, so we'll have those little green basturds in the mix soon enough :) I have to admit (and again, just an early-exposure opinion!) that I'm a tad disappointed with the intra-faction balance... C Hoffman, for example, is so constrained by the range of his abilities and by the order in which is Robots have to activate that he's pretty much pants as far as I can tell. I mean I've won with him but it's SO much more work than with Sonnia or Perdita, which is in my opinion a good measure of a Master from a tournament perspective (i.e. high cognitive burden sucks because it's exhausting and leaves less bandwidth for looking at what your opponents is doing, etc.) Anyway are you at all interested in a few games to learn me on what Somer can do?? I'd love to get exposed to as many Masters as possible! I have a great table set up at my house if you're game for playing on a weeknight after dinner and kids bedtime... PM me! Geez man, I am just messing with you! I think you are sorta right about internal faction power. Some Masters come with an easy button. But some of the ones that look questionable are because you haven't found the good stuff yet (not that I have either). Practically every time I look up strategies on a master/model I learn something new. But some models/masters will just never be quite as good as others... which is sad, but Humans design this game, and they are not known for perfection. Have you looked at Hoffman with the Arcanist Constructs option? Joss for some scrap creation and general hefty fighting maybe? I am honestly not too familiar with Hoffman. As for a game, I would love to, but realistically I probably won't have a chance anytime soon (Hell, my last game was in May ). Definitely something we should try to do sometime in the future though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted November 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Well okay, May it is then :)Hoffman yeah I've played with all his available toys... Joss is right up there, Ryle turns out to be pretty solid too, and then of course Metal Gamin, Steam Arachnid Swarm, Howard Langston, Peacekeeper, Hunters, Watchers, Guardian, etc. I think the trap that people fall into with Hoffman is getting too excited about all his looping and upgrading that they spend all their time/effort doing that, and not playing Malifaux. That said, even if you turn your attention to playing the game, and try to make Hoffman do more work than just buffing and handing out AP, he's still miserably limited due to his short range, and his crew is often hampering by trying to stay in touch with him. Still there's potential in just a +1 Armor H. Langston and a Nimble Arachnid Swarm running around (the Swarm is hilarious at Ml 7). I just go back to feeling like his abilities constrain your activation order and positioning so much that unless you opponent says, "Okay let's be dumb and have a brawl with your Hoffball" you are going to get out played. I don't know about an "easy button", closest two things I've seen there are Lilith's Illusory Forest + Tangled Shadows, and Leveticus' activate/kill/bury/repeat. But those aren't enough to win the game unless you play well and that's not easy if you have a good opponent across from you, IMO! My main observation regarding balance is that, if both players are playing well, you end up with a smaller set of Masters that seem to be able to hang, through a combination of power and low cognitive burden, and a whole bunch more that don't quite cut it unless you're really outplaying your opponents. Eh, good thing we hire crews after announcing factions ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I think the trap that people fall into with Hoffman is getting too excited about all his looping and upgrading that they spend all their time/effort doing that, and not playing Malifaux. Yeah, this is a trap that many "engine" masters can easily fall into. Somer can spend all game summoning and then... oops, I forgot to get some objectives. This was something I really had to learn to balance him on when playing a summon list. I don't know about an "easy button", I mean "easy button" a little more of cognitive burn than winning. Perdita is a good example of this. Move a but, do some tricks, kill everything in range... most of the high combat masters are fairly easy (with a dash of various tricks). Of course I think part of this ease though is due to us all being well conditioned to attempt to murder each others models in every other game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Been cruising the forums. Apparently, Kirai is a very strong master against Outcasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Been cruising the forums. Apparently, Kirai is a very strong master against Outcasts. I haven't played Kirai in M2E, but she used to be insane in the last edition. Veskit is well versed in her use and pretty much swears by her. I really want to get her back on the table and try her out but just haven't been getting any games in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 I haven't played Kirai in M2E, but she used to be insane in the last edition. Veskit is well versed in her use and pretty much swears by her. I really want to get her back on the table and try her out but just haven't been getting any games in. We can fix that you know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarbicus Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 The only Masters I have never beat are the Viktorias and Von Schill. Not sure why. Of course, me not beating someone is not really saying much... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm curious about Nicodem. Vs. Pandora, Lilith, Sonnia and Perdita, he's just way too slow to get going. Nathan's and my crews put on serious pressure from the very first turn. He is something really sad like 1-13, with his only win coming vs. Zoraida or something. On the other hand, Molly seems awesome. Her killjoy delivery gives her a huge threat range to keep others honest, and she punishes clumping wonderfully. She's not an every S&S master, but she's much less vulnerable to our early pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Here is our meta, and how I would rank them, with spaces between the tiers: Pandora - So much control. Perfect with the Neverborn Allstars. No answer to voices = good freakin' luck to you... Sonnia - Punishes mistakes like no other, and I love the combos Nathan has for her (not seen them anywhere else online) Leveticus - Just a beast. Joel only has like 4 games with him, but is already competitive. Colette - I don't play her overt power crews, so maybe I rate her lower than is correct. But she will ALWAYS get her schemes. Lilith - The only reason she rates lower than Pandora is that she needs her cards much more, and austringers/belles eat cards Dreamer - With Sonnia dominating our meta, he's not crushing like he probably does in other metas. Molly - A summoner that can get going right away with Killjoy and Bette, so our aggressive crews can't just roll her Perdita - Usually, Sonnia just does it all better :( Seamus - Joel hasn't found a good crew to back him up yet, so he may be better than we think. Nicodem - Despite his amazing auras, he exerts so little pressure on turns 1 and 2 that he loses board control immediately C. Hoffman - Poor dude :( No way to win unless his opponent decides to brawl for some reason Rasputina - Our boards may just be too dense for her. She just seems to suck. Zoraida - My favorite master, fluff-wise, but she's passing out AP on 7s... Yuck. Lady Justice - Not sure she's even won a single game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted December 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 LJ is definitely suffering from meta-suck. She's specifically tough to win with against a crew that can tarpit her and keep her off the important combats/areas of the board, and most of our crews do that really well. I think she has a lot of potential against certain crews, but I don't know how to play her when she can so easily play into a bad matchup. I also think Perdita is going to prove to be better as we get better. She's initially easier to predict than Sonnia, but as we get better I think perhaps less easy to predict and certainly less easy to control, due to her amazing upgrade pool. Specifically her Wp9 and Os Veo is clutch vs. Pandora, Lilith, Leveticus, and to some extent even Sonnia, and her ability to ignore Wp duels to target is underappreciated at this point because we aren't attacking each other's Wp and control hands enough IMO. I can imagine that if we are both playing really well, Perdita's upgrades may make her tougher than Sonnia esp vs. Pandora and Lilith who have such devastating Ca actions and no way to get free [+] flips like Lev. Otherwise though I like your ordering pretty well but I would have clumped Lilith with the top 3 and I would have clumped Molly (and maybe Dreamer) with the next tier because I feel they haven't gotten a solid crew around them yet, compared to the others. Fun stuff let's go play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 You guys should get a game against Dan Johnson with his Nicodem some time, he won OFCC malifaux this year taking only Nico. Nicodem can be a nightmare to deal with, and I'd say he's a top tier master. Definitely get out to Guardian Games when you can to mix it up against more masters and opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Maybe consider taking Chiaki to help with removing paralyze? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Super curious how Dan Johnson plays him. Is he a PDX dude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Vancouver, WA but I think he goes to Guardian Games from time to time. I sent you each other's contact in Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted December 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I already reached out to Dan and we're trying to find a time that might work for us both (busy people!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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