Auto hits and abilities that require hits

[Guest]

Probably FAQed somewhere, but I'm not seeing it. If I have an ability that triggers when a hit occurs, does it matter if that hit was automatic, like hammer of wrath or a melee attack against a WS zero target (like an immobilized vehicle)?

 

Example 1, Does hammer of wrath's auto hit qualify as a hitting attack for the maulerfiend's Magma Cutters? 

 

Example 2 (kill team specific), Does hammer of wrath's autohit count as a hit for Low Blow?

[AbusePuppy]

Hmm, an interesting thought. My intuition on Magma Cutters would that that isn't how they are intended to work, although I'm not sure I could support that with anything- as best I can tell, Hammer of Wrath must (by definition) be an attack and automatically hits, thus allowing you to always trigger Magma Cutters- presuming the target survived both your Hammer of Wrath attack and any subsequent attacks, of course.

 

I don't know how Low Blow is worded, so I can't comment on that part.

[Guest]

Hmm, an interesting thought. My intuition on Magma Cutters would that that isn't how they are intended to work, although I'm not sure I could support that with anything- as best I can tell, Hammer of Wrath must (by definition) be an attack and automatically hits, thus allowing you to always trigger Magma Cutters- presuming the target survived both your Hammer of Wrath attack and any subsequent attacks, of course.

 

I don't know how Low Blow is worded, so I can't comment on that part.

Low blow has the same wording as those magma cutters. And regarding WS zero, the wording of automatic hits against WS zero targets is consistent with the wording in hammer of wrath.

 

I agree, it doesn't seem like it would work this way, but in reading the rules, I'm not seeing a reason it wouldn't work this way. I tend to think of auto-matic hits skipping the hit roll, but in the wording, seems like that step remains, and the roll is just considered a hit without rolling. 

 

Another consideration is that if Hammer of wrath is considered an attack, then an ability which can reduce your attacks per round to 1, should be able to affect hammer of wrath. Thinking about Lasher Tendrils, now. Again, doesn't seem like it is intended to function like this.

[Guest]

Hmm, an interesting thought. My intuition on Magma Cutters would that that isn't how they are intended to work, although I'm not sure I could support that with anything- as best I can tell, Hammer of Wrath must (by definition) be an attack and automatically hits, thus allowing you to always trigger Magma Cutters- presuming the target survived both your Hammer of Wrath attack and any subsequent attacks, of course.

 

I don't know how Low Blow is worded, so I can't comment on that part.

Hmmm...further thinking, if automatic hits don't count, then magma cutters cannot be used against buildings at all, since buildings have WS zero and are automatically hit in assault. 

 

Though, as you say, most buildings won't survive the base attacks of that maulerfiend with his 4 auto-hitting S10 ap2 hits with +1 on armor pen rolls against builds due to "siege crawler." So maybe magma cutters aren't intended to function against WS zero....

[WestRider]

Hammer of Wrath is explicitly called an Attack in its description. I can't see any RAW reason this wouldn't work.

 

Also, re: MaulerFiends and Buildings, it depends on how badly you roll. I once managed to do nothing more than tear the gun off a Plasma Obliterator with all four Claw Hits and both Magma Cutters :P

[Purajh]

After going over all the rules I would have to side with Paxmiles on this one.

 

Hammer of wrath is an attack at initiative step 10 in the fight sub phase that automatically hits.

 

Requirements for magma cutters per CSM Codex Pg 68 "If a mauler fiend hits with at least one attack in the fight sub phase"

 

Requirements for Low Blow per Kill Team Rules Pg 10 "A target that suffers one or more hits in close combat from this model" 

[InfestedKerrigan]

People are running Maulerfiends in Killteam?

[AbusePuppy]

Another consideration is that if Hammer of wrath is considered an attack, then an ability which can reduce your attacks per round to 1, should be able to affect hammer of wrath. Thinking about Lasher Tendrils, now. Again, doesn't seem like it is intended to function like this.

 

Actually, I believe this is a different case- Lasher Tendrils reduce the Attacks characteristic of a model, which is different from an attack made by a model.

[Guest]

Actually, I believe this is a different case- Lasher Tendrils reduce the Attacks characteristic of a model, which is different from an attack made by a model.

True, but aren't bonus attacks considered modifiers to the attacks characteristic? Bonus strength would affect the strength characteristic...

 

Look at page 49 regarding the attacks characteristic and bonus attacks. If lasher tendrils doesn't modify bonus attacks, then it also wouldn't apply to attacks generated by charging or dual melee weapons, as those are also consider bonus attacks. 

[Guest]

People are running Maulerfiends in Killteam?

No, the two examples are unrelated except in context to the topic. 

 

Regarding hammer and low blow, idea was that since hammer isn't reduced initiative by charging through cover, if the hit from hammer qualifies, then I can effectively assault through cover with a model that lacks assault grenades, even if it means striking at the same time, it's better than striking second. 

 

The applications of the maulerfiend with magma cutters is pretty self explanatory: I use the autohit to gain a magma cutter attack for hitting the target. Basically gives me a bonus melee melta attack each time I charge and hit with hammer.