Toe In is back, Cover save re-visited.

[peter.cosgrove]

Dear GW. Here in America "Entirely" and "Wholly" have the exact same meaning.

But not in GW land.

Had a chance to play ITC today at GG and had a run-in with the cover rules. Turns out our discussion on these forums for both the RAW BRB and FAQ are wrong.

Rule:

Change the third paragraph of rules text to read: ‘Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely on or within a ruin only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the shooting model.’

Rule:

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within. 

Ok. Here is how it works. Just like the terms "Set up on the battlefield" and "Within 1" the term "wholly within" has a specified ruling and interpretation.

For example: 

Page 269 – Deployment
Change the first paragraph to read:
‘The Defender sets up their army wholly within their
deployment zone. The Attacker then sets up their army
wholly within their deployment zone. 

and:

Pages 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 230, 231, 232, 233,
234, 235, 261 – Deployment
Change ‘A player’s models must be set up within their
own deployment zone’ to read:
‘A player’s models must be set up wholly within their own
deployment zone.’

When this rule says "wholly within" it means the entire model and base must be inside the measurement.

However, when the rules DO NOT say "wholly within" but instead says "within" then the specified rule means  any portion of the model/base.

For example:

Page 226 – Using Tactical Objectives
Add the following to the end of the paragraph:
‘Unless otherwise stated, a player controls an objective
marker if they have more models within 3" of the centre
of it than their opponent.’

And

A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed
anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model
and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit
that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase
in which the new model was created. Note that if you
cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because
there is no room, it is simply not set up.

The FAQ even iterates this here:

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes? A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

The problem is, this clarification just makes it worse, especially for those of us who are still catching up.

So, when GW says "Entirely" they mean the NUMBER count of models in the unit not the entire model/base or entire model/base of each model in a multiple unit model. So if there is 1 model in the unit then "Entirely" means that 1 model. If there are 2 or more models in the unit then "Entirely" means all the models. When GW says "wholly" they mean the measurement for the entire model and base of EACH model in the unit.

here is the confusion:

Change the third paragraph of rules text to read:
‘Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin
receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely
on or within a ruin only receive the benefit of cover if at
least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of
view of the shooting model.’

Now, the "entirely" word in this paragraph means the full model count, NOT the measurement of each model and base. And this most specifically does NOT say "wholly within"

This starts to make sense when you start looking at THIS paragraph logically:

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

here's the logic bit. If you have a single infantry model as a unit and that single infantry model has a portion of it's base "toed in" to terrain that gives a cover save then that single infantry model gains a cover save. Because the FAQ specifies "partially within" the terrain. Because the single model is "all the models". The rules clarification does NOT say wholly within, it even doubles down on it by saying "partially within". So if you have 2 or more infantry models and 1 model is "on the terrain" and the other model is "partially on" the terrain, then it doesn't make sense that ONLY the model that is ON the terrain and not the model that is partially on the terrain gets a cover save. Because how can a single model as a unit gain a cover save when the exact same model in the exact same position in a multiple model unit does not.

So, you can toe in to terrain and gain a cover save. You are not required to be "wholly within" just "partially within", however if you have 2 or more models in the unit  each model has to be toed in.

So this means non infantry models such as single model vehicle/monstrous creature units can gain a cover save by just having any portion of their base or hull toed into a piece of terrain that gives a cover save AND the model is 50% obstructed by anything from the shooter's point of view.

Cheers.

[spagunk]

Truly, they have a dizzying intellect!

[VonVilkee]

This is the way I always understood it... I must be British! (Actually just read allot of British writing so I have context)

[WestRider]

Yeah, this is how I've been reading that the whole time. That's why they took the time to specifically define "wholly within", so that "entirely within" could be given a distinct meaning.

[peter.cosgrove]

we had a previous discussion thread where everyone pretty much agreed that the entire model had to be inside the terrain to get a cover save. Not just toed in. And if a unit has 2 or more models, with some models being partially in, then only the models that are entirely in the terrain gain a cover save.

 

 

[WestRider]

I remember it. And that reading makes no sense to me. I just didn't have the energy at the time to jump in on the discussion. But I'm pretty sure that the distinction between "wholly within" and "entirely within" was made to let this work this way.

[peter.cosgrove]

right, except for the word "Entirely" that was the word that confused everyone. Anyway, that's out of the way.

[spagunk]

Entirely is definitely a confusing thing. But in the context of some rules, they should be distinguishing between models and units.

For example, with the infantry unit thing I read it to mean that all models in the unit must abide by the "within" parameter of the rule. So, you can't have one model outside the "within" distance. "Entirely" in this case assumes the word "Every" in the context of the Unit.

So to me the key is that when they use "within", they mean part of the model E.g. "toe in". If your opponent has to break out sub millimeter rulers to properly measure, they can kiss grits though.

If they mean "wholly within", that to me means that the entire base of the model must be within the specified parameters of the rule. Not a toe, the whole base. Vehicles are definitely a bit wonky in this regards since many don't have bases and some have bits and bobs that stick way further than the hull does. I think unless they write something specifically, this will require some agreement ahead of time. Again, if someone models a giant gun on an tiny vehicle to capitalize on this, then they deserve the "dick" hat.

It's real confusing since it is based on language which is pretty mutable in most circumstances.

[dalmer]

That's like LSAT language right there.

LSAT = "either" means A and not B... or B and not A... or both A and B

What?

LSAT = "most" can apply to only one of something, or all of something

What?

Maybe GW folks are all lawyers