bkieft

Ah, I got your question finally... Combat Phase step 2 says "Each model in the unit attacks with all of the melee weapons it is armed with (see Attacking). From Attacking "The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use." When I first read these I thought I just pick one weapon statline per combat phase. I don't think this is true. After playing a bit I realized for balance sake you need to use as many attacks as you can in every warscroll, as the above states, ie every weapon at your disposal each round because that is your # of attacks for the model. If you don't do this with Heroes and Monsters they are pretty weeny and will rarely kill anything. As for the goblins, they have 5+ to hit and wound on everything so a group of 40 with 2 attacks each will rarely take down big models, but it might happen if you get really lucky and your opponent gets really unlucky.

Not sure what you mean. Fantasy had 20mm square, 25mm square, 40mm square, 50mm square with a few rectangles in there for good measure. Humans and gobbos were 20mm, are you suggesting we rebase?

Goblins have 2 melee attack types with different ranges, Spears and Slashas. When you 'pile in' 40 gobbos it becomes a counting nightmare around who is in range with what attack. 1" is pretty easy but squidgy with 20mm based troops. ooo, there is a question. Are there 20 mm round bases or am I Mr cheaterpants by piling in more gobbos than I should?

No need to get nasty, never mind the LOL at the end of the statement I made.

pretre, you take what I said too personally, I was giving you a hard time about your positivity. You are singularly upbeat about the game, good for you, own it.

I didn't find all of the streamlining that streamlined. Yes fast paced but actually too many dice rolls for the results. Is this the Age of Dicehammer?

This. But it is not a WFB replacement and I think it has scaling problems at the grand army level. Gigantic conflict is one of the things that makes me stay with WFB.

I am pretty sure you would be positive about ANYTHING the community would come up with (good or not) judging by the way you are trumpeting AoS with no reservations. lol

One thing I was doing in the game we played with 2 horde units was just putting the movement trays in base to base and assuming the models were intermingled instead of moving them on and off the movement tray. What is annoying with O&G and Skaven is that you spend a lot of time doing that...this was an issue in 7th ed too. The problem with keeping them on the tray is 1) charge distance not being enough that the whole unit can get into melee range and 2) the pile in step to get everyone in melee range. Don't care for the 'counting' attack types aspect after piling in with hordes either. 40 2" spear attacks and only 25 1" regular attacks. It is a bit clunky when you have more than a couple horde units.

I don't see how this works when my AoS models are meant to be on round bases...how do I then convert back to rank and file. I beginning to think this is an experiment to see if it sticks in the short term (around a year) before calling it a one off game and going back, or continuing down this path. My larger concern is for those that convert to round and have to go back (thus souring their attitude) or the kids that get in and won't pursue the larger game because it is for oldsters that already have square bases. And I have to ask pretre...how do you think this scales when you have 8 x 30+ mobs that I would have in a grand army? And are you going to come rebase all 7k of my O&G with me?

Did you read my whole post? He liked the game a lot and we did exactly what the rules said, dump models on the table. It was a cooperative effort of choosing what we wanted to see played, and I let him pick which army he wanted to play AFTER we had the models out. We even added some models in the middle of turns as it looked like the Daemons were getting slapped about. BTW, I have no problem changing the game in the middle to increase the fun (been in this long enough I can read the winds of magic and see where a game is going and adjust appropriately). When was the last time your opponent did that for you? He had a blast and wants to play again. If the game can't survive without self policing or heavy mod there is a HUGE problem. I assume by stilted you mean having a 'large' number of models? This was a weeny game by my standards, I like dropping my 7k worth of painted orcs on the table...this army would have been about 1800pts...the Daemon was about 1600pts. AoS is a dinky game with pretty dinky scope, not meant to play in the greater than 2000 pt range very often. (back to moving mobs around. NtK, oh yes those days )

There is nothing 8th edition about this...Parker and I threw down a lopsided game tonight 37 Tzeentch Daemons against 95 O&G to see how it would go. I can see how AoS balances if you are not too far off in model count (with a mix of unit types, not lopsided MSU, FLU or all characters) but it is nearly impossible to win in overwhelming odds. I am going to suggest games that are generally kept to 2 to 1 max model count ratio for AoS to be completely fair. Parker was a sport and enjoyed it (this is his first Warhammer experience) so I asked him the question "What do you think? Do you like it?" and then the follow up question "Would you like to buy and paint an army?" He liked the game flow and the back and forth and the idea that it felt fast paced. (I then pointed out our 3 turn game took two and a half hours, we are learning so no huge surprise) He looked at the models we had on the table and said, "I can probably get prepainted models to rep this stuff for fairly cheap but I am not sure I would do what you do for building an army." I further clarified with him that he was talking about the 37 Tzeentch models and not the horde and he said he would never do the 95 models. I showed him the AoS boxed set and he asked me if this was trying to be like 40k...he loves the 40k model range and he asked if 40k played like this did. Not exactly what GW would have in mind, I wouldn't think. My impressions. It feels right as a game of skirmish and for the most part and in my WFB mind I can see that GW did spend a lot of time getting the balance of 1 to 1 matchups to feel at least somewhat correct from what an 8th ed person would experience. But with that said, it is too easy to do everything, there is no working for (and no payoff) to your actions to really pull something cool off tactically. It is a dice rolling slugfest. Apply your attacks before the other guy can do the damage back to you. I found the math easy to take one unit out before it became a threat to another...it was just too easy for me and without the movement restrictions, piloting a unit into position to use it correctly, it just wasn't that intriguing. So as a quick lets play a game, this system works. There is a cadence to the game that may appeal to some. For army building I don't think it is good at all. I don't really care for the embedded rules, the heavy reliance on the warscrolls. Yeah, it will get better over time but because there was not a solid one unit at a time methodology for each phase (when you don't know the order the phase will take due to you each taking turns in combat, I was flipping through the warscrolls constantly trying to make sure I wasn't missing actions that could be taken based on the situation or the health of my unit.) Moving hordes around is not fun...rules say 30+ goblins good with a specific rule built for units of that size...I say without movement trays for hordes f-off, no one wants to spend the entire night moving a unit or units of models that large singularly. (that was an annoying bit in playing 40k Orks as well) Maybe if I just played Sigmar Marines I wouldn't have paint much or move many individual models. I give it a big thumbs meh, for the moment and will continue to exercise it a bit with Parker, but I have to say when it is no longer interesting to him you know that I am lost to it as well.

It's okay buddy, don't worry about it, magic will happen and there will be unicorns and sunsets and flowers. Every opponent will be a peach, no one will figure out deadly combos and we will all just roll dice and have fun...it will work! List ratings are a thing of the past!

I won't answer Yes I will play it, for how long is the question. First blush, no I will not stick with it. SO the poll does not work for me. I would answer Yes to try, No to be playing it after a month (probably no more than a few games to make sure I get the mechanics). I like games. I only have an ongoing relationship with a few. I learn it, if it doesn't hook me I move on.

I don't think restrictions or structure will work for this game, it will lead to differences from player to player, player to club, club to club, club to region, region to region, and onward. Maybe eventually a structure will prevail but we have had this issue in earlier editions and it never worked itself out for multiple years in a single edition of the rules. In the meantime, when you set up your games...don't be a wiener.

bk's assessment: Good for little rumbles, makes it all way more beer and pretzels. Lots of dice rolls and the math is not too bad (I was a bit dubious about it being too much), seems pretty simple overall. I can see games with more that 100 models going on for 2 hours or more if you have 2 savvy players. Sudden death my left foot. It is interesting that if you just want to smash it up you get right into dice rolling and if you were trying to be strategic about it you could dance around each other all day...I am not sure how two people with different play styles will get along in this version, it will be an interesting experiment to pit an up the gut player against a tactician. I envision fisticuffs (okay maybe not that bad but...) I think my only large complaint besides losing my structure and what I feel was an interesting tactical challenge on the table is the heavy reliance on the war scrolls and remembering the situational rules for each, including the terrain. (bolded for emphasis because it is a pretty big deal around my continued interest) The looseness of the system is both a strength and a weakness. Stacking a 'self imposed' structure on it will lead back to the bad ol' days of arguments internally in clubs, clubs against clubs and even on a region by region level on who has the right balanced structure. As its own game, it is intriguing, but it really isn't an adequate replacement for 8th for the major points so I hope there is a 9th edition. This seems like maybe an 'experiment'.

I think I have one more idea I am going to share here and bug out like Jim... This will be a fantastic game to throw down with the kids with my massive amount of painted models and I might spark them to play more. I am formulating how to trick them into learning the rules before the old man. But even given the above I don't see the sales gain for GW, the old money is set in its ways (and still buys whole armies and expands its existing ones), the new money has too many choices (in all the other games that are similar, that may not require painting) and they might be stealing money from themselves if the 40k crowd likes this more than the current 40k. I wonder if in a year or so WFB is reborn after someone jumps out a corporate window and how many of us oldsters will be around at that point to pick up our broken elfish spears to line them up again.

I hope so, just can't see it yet. There is even a bit of Herohammer in what I am reading. D, you should bring out some of the old (or should I say, ancient) books and see if they even stole some of the verbiage, I swear I have read some of this before.

Haha! YES! So why do I want to play this? Be warned all the Fantasy players are coming to ruin your 40k! lol

I (dkieft's brother) will try this (probably with dkieft) but there are a ton of other skirmish games I can play. WFB was fairly unique, massive armies with monsters marching around the battlefield like Napoleons' armies all lined up in rows. This seems a bit too much like everything else. So why would I choose it over Malifaux or even 40k?

0rD0f4n471cU5 1s rU1neD!!1!1!!

lol...best pre-apocolyptic post ever!

Beating my brother to the punch... W4rh4mm3r 1s rU1neD!!1!1!!

And back to the subject of the thread...where is my Tzeentch?!

We did that back in the day of Herohammer and 3rd and it works great. Keep on ranting!