wisetiger7

Not for the same role. That's like saying an eagle is better than a horde of white lions. They have different roles, and thus are needed for different tasks. A unit of dark riders is meant to harass and open up flanks, as well as redirecting/countering redirectors. A horde of witch elves role is to put out mass low strength attacks, with the occassional role of taking out lightly armored monstrous infantry (or anything T4 or higher with 5+AS or lower). And if you can manage to boost them in any way, they become a force to be reckoned with (ie. wyssan's or power of darkness, or even razor standard). Imagine if you could bring a full 10wide force to bear with a Death Hag w/ witchbrew: 57 S3 attacks with poison, ASF with rerolls, and reroll 1's to wound and another 6 wounds S4 with poison, ASF, MP. As far as I know, there are no other units that have that much attack output. And 63 attacks with Mindrazor? Nothing is surviving that. You can have whatever biased opinion you like of them, but in practicality, they are a solid unit, and no other DE core unit could do what they do, period.

So why did they move it back a week? I've had it in my calendar for the last two months as January 26th. Now there are several of us who can't/won't go. It might be nice if they actually kept to their schedule instead of changing it around two weeks before hand.

You can always charge the cauldron out of the unit to take care of redirectors. Or you can use the multitude of other DE options to shoot the crap out of redirectors. Redirectors can be bad for any unit if not taken care of, witch elf or not, so that's not really an argument. The fact that they have frenzy and must charge is irrelevant if you have either a death hag (see above) or a cauldron in the unit. Remember, if it charges out of the unit, the unit itself cannot charge as well, and thus you don't have to take a test to hold back its charge; you can move/march as normal. I don't really think the cauldron is worth it if you can have a death hag by itself in the witch elf unit for 190 points less. The witchbrew is the main thing that you want, so you get that extra attack. A witch elf horde is only like 330 points plus a death hag. And obviously you only want hordes in larger games. So in a 2800 point game, your horde only takes up maybe half the core tax; you have plenty of points left to put into other core for support. And again, I don't think they are the best unit in the game, not even close. But they are formidable. Definitely far better than the 'horrible' rating you are giving them. I'll give you darkshards being better, but of course, are situational; you can say goodbye to them first round of combat. They are the bane of any High Elf army, save cav lists. Same with dark riders. Corsairs are okay if you want a mediocre core anvil. Dark elves are aggressive. Why do you think their lore is all damage and hex? They are strong in every phase as long as they are aggressive. Witch elves fit into that mentality. Corsairs don't. Repeater handbows are trash at 12". Giving them additional hand weapons that witch elves get for free? I think if it were me, I'd rather have 4 attacks with poison than 2 attacks with a 4+, especially since elves have ASF anyway. I think Corsairs were caught somewhere between a shooty unit and a combat unit, and are mediocre at either option. The only thing worth it for their points is the silly 4+. Who plays defensive dark elves?! I do have to concede that the Corsair models are a thousand times better than the derp witch elves. And severely cheaper. Ack! Stop having me play Devil's Advocate! Defending witch elves feels dirty. Screw you dark elves. PS. I do admire you not having witch elves or sisters in your army. Screw them and their $60 price tag. Plus the army takes more finesse without them, and can be more fun playwise, both for you and your opponent.

Standard 5 wide still allows 7 wide worth of attacks... With a Witchbrew Death Hag, we're talking 39 S3 and 6 S4 poison attacks with ASF/Hatred and Murderous Prowess. So only 28% (not 50%)of your attacks will be wasted, which can sometimes be worth it to have an extra rank of supporting attacks. Regarding tougher enemies like knights or heavies, sometimes the sheer volume of attacks that they have to save against can still put on a couple unsaved wounds. And if you can put on a couple wounds against knights, that's a lot of points you can make up for when they cut down your numbers. Plus, you'll probably have steadfast. And if you are really worried about those units, just don't charge the witches into them; use something else. Witches aren't the end all/be all. Remember, they're core, and elf core isn't the best, combat-wise; sometimes volume helps with that. Wait. why am I arguing FOR witch elves?!? PS. Sisters are stupid.

I don't think GW realizes that if they split up the dual kit into two boxes, and charge $35-40 per box, they would make tons more money. The $60 price tag makes purchasing a box seem daunting. Instead, people are looking to chinese copies that sell for around $37-40, free shipping. So, losing money to chinese copies, as well as alienating customers, both new and old, or bolstering sales and revenue, while maintaining said customers, and attracting new customers with cheaper prices? And it would be easy to do it. They already do it with ogres. All ogre bodies (aside from maneaters and characters) have the exact same body sprue. They just add different arms with weapons, gut plates and heads, and some bits here and there. Same body sprue for witch elves and sisters? Just divide the heads, weapons, and whatever else. Hell, that would even make it cheaper from a production cost perspective, because the mold for the body sprues can be used toward two kits instead of one.

Hmm... As with combo with troops... Alarielle and Teclis. +9 to cast light/life buffs on unit with Banner of Avelorn? Yes please. In their unit, Alarielle can also take Life or Light, so you can potentially have two casts of the same spell per turn, three with Stave of Avelorn. Hello, three castings of Pha's, -3 to hit the unit, with +9, +8, and +8 to cast it. Throw on +2T or 5+ Regen, we're looking at a Deathstar that you can't hit, nor wound, not to mention Teclis and all his extra power dice for one round. Throw in a bunch of nobles to take up the front rank, so Teclis and Alarielle go to the second rank, and have Teclis cast boosted Savage Beast of Horros, and now you have a unit that practically can't be hit, can't be wounded, and has 30 S7 attacks with ASF. Oh, might as well give them Banner of the World Dragon too. Or just Kairos. By himself. edit: is Kairos as good as he was last book?

BTW this has been debated to death on Ulthuan.net ever since this edition came out (probably before that since High Elves have had ASF since at least 7th edition). I would consider Ulthuan the experts on this matter as High Elves have had to deal with it the longest, and even on here there is point of contention for both sides. It is important to take note of Rod's remarks (rdghuizing) as he is widely known as the most constant reliable source on rules (as well as anyone else in green). http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45484&start=0 Also, this is kinda funny (please don't lend any weight to this): "the two cancel out and neither applies..." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cancel+out

Again, you never answered my question. If, by some circumstance, the unit with ASF and ASL loses ASL, do they get ASF back? And vice versa, if they lose ASF, do they get ASL back? There is no part in the rules that states when a unit loses one of the rules, they get the other back. Therefore, by your logic, if they have both rules, they lose both rules, permanently. So, let's say a unit with ASF runs into a Frost Phoenix. The Frosty give the unit ASL. Now they lose both rules? What happens when the Frost Phoenix is no longer there (ie. killed, or flees)? Are you saying that the unit doesn't get ASF back because their original ASF got cancelled out by the Frosty's ASL?!? That's ridiculous. No. The LOGICAL way is that they maintain both rules, but the effects cancel each other out. They don't lose the rules. Nowhere does it say they LOSE the rules. On top of that, what do you think happens if white lions (ASF and ASL) fight a Frost Phoenix with Blizzard Aura, that gives the white lions ASL again? Under your logic, the ASF and ASL cancel out, then the ASL from Blizzard Aura will make them strike last, no longer at Initiative. Yet the FAQs clearly state “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” Your logic is ultimately flawed, sir. Feel free to answer either of the underlined questions.

Am I right to assume you believe that the unit no longer has the ASF or ASL rules if they are "cancelled out"? So what would happen if whatever is attributing the ASL rule is no longer there? They wouldn't get ASF back, according to your logic. RAW, they cancel each other out and neither applies. They don't LOSE the rules. GW has the grammar that defined the word 'lose' or a derivative of it. That is clear with the rule for Frenzy. The only clear definition of 'cancel' is that it doesn't apply, not that it is completely gone. Therefore, logically, if a unit has ASF and ASL, neither applies, but they don't lose the special rules, they just neither gain benefit nor detriment from them. Furthermore, a unit with ASF and ASL does not benefit from keeping these rules while not applying them. It is, in fact, a detriment to the enemy unit with ASF only. You may see that as a benefit for the unit with ASF and ASL, but regardless, the enemy unit does not get rerolls because your unit has the ASF rule, even though it doesn't apply its benefits. The enemy unit has the part of the rules that states if both units have ASF, then neither gets rerolls. Your ASF/ASL unit does not apply, but the enemy's rule still does apply.