Dark Elf list for Black Sheep Brawl - feedback requested!

[McNathanson]

So one of the two conflicts I had for the Brawl has gone away, and I'm down to one… which means there's a chance I can go after all!

Having only played a few games of 8th, I need your guys' advice on whether this list will be reasonable at an "all comers" tournament.  I don't mind losing so I don't want some sort of gimmicky WAAC list, but I also would like to not find that I have no answer for a lot of common threats!

Your advice, please and thank you!

Dreadlord on Cold One

- 1+ AS with Dawnstone (LA, SDC, Shield, Cold One)

- Ogre Blade

- Crown of Command

 

L4 Sorceress on Dark Steed

- Cloak of Twilight

- Dispel Scroll

 

BSB on foot

- 1+ AS with Luckstone (HA, SDC, Enchanted Shield)

- Sword of Might

- Potion of Toughness (I'm weird like that)

 

Master on Manticore with Scaly Skin

- 1+ AS (HA, SDC, Shield)

- Lance

- Black Dragon Egg

 

16 Darkshards, SB, Mus

- shields

- flaming attacks banner

 

20 Corsairs, FC

- +1 movement banner

 

5 Dark Riders, Mus

- shields

- RXBs

 

14 Black Guard, FC

 

9 Cold One Knights, FC

- re-roll failed Ld Banner (I hate failing stupidity!!)

 

War Hydra with Fiery Breath

[Iraf]

What Lore for magic?  Either way, the list looks decent and nothing over the top.  No broken synergies and no deathstars.  I think it would be a welcome army list and hope to see you make it to the event.

[MexicanNinja]

Here are my suggestions:

 

1) Dreadlord needs shield, sea dragon cloack, Ogre Blade and the Black Amulet- This gives you a 1+/4+.  The amulet lets you cause free wounds in a challenge for every succesful ward save made which ignores armour).

 

2) Lore of Dark Magic for your Level 4-  +5 to cast every spell is huge with the spells already having low casting vaules.  If you need a tip on how to use her effectively check out my casting 101.  Also, with her being in the unit of dark riders, you need to play them carefully.  A failed LD test from 25% casaulties will make her useless.  If you want the most from her while using the Cloak of Twilight, stick her on a Dark Pegasus.

 

3) BSB on foot needs heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, sword of might, enchanted shield, dawnstone- This gives your BSB a 1+ re-rollable armour save and a consistant S5 attack.

 

4) Master on Manticore needs some more survivability.  Upgrading him with heavy armour, charmed shield, sea dragon cloak will give him a 1+ AS with a chance to ignore the first hit on a 2+. 

 

5) Black Guard should have standard of discipline.  This will make them Stubborn 10.

 

6) Your Dark Riders should have repeater xbows.

 

I see this list struggling against armies with lots of 1+/2+ armour save units.  If you could find some way to get a RBT or 2 in the list, that will serve you well.  I'm not sure how or where to get the points to make the changes or if the changes even fit your play style, without looking at the book, but I suggest at least looking into a few of the above changes.  If you have any questions related to Dark Elves let me know, I've been playing very effectively since the new book has come out.

[McNathanson]

Thanks guys,

 

Iraf: I'll definitely be playing Dark Magic for my lore.

 

MN: I didn't note down the exact mundane items, but they all have the right armor to get to 1+ AS (SDC, shield, HA where needed).  And I forgot to note that the Dark Riders have RXBs :)  I'll make those edits.

 

As for the magic item combos, I like the Black Amulet too, and that would free up the Dawnstone for the BSB.  Seems like a good change.

 

Standard of Discipline is a great point, I'll see if I can fit it after the above adjustments.

 

Finally I totally agree if I had 200 more points I'd get a pair of Reapers.  I looked hard at how to get them in before even posting this list.  I don't know how to do it… the Core is at Minimum, I love my "Manticore" model (converted Fell Beast from LotR), my BSB and General seem necessary… and I'd hate to remove the Black Guard, they're my favorite models in the army.  The only real way I saw to do it was to drop the Cold One Knights from 9 to 5… I've been flopping back and forth on that one.  Hmmm.  

How important do you think the 2nd ranks of CoKs is?  I feel like dropping them to 5 just makes them SO vulnerable to shooting!

[MexicanNinja]

Here's how I feel about Black Guard and Cold One Knights:

 

It's either one or the other.  They are both expensive units and to get the most out of them in higher point games you need to maximize their efficeincy.  5 CoK's will most likely get shot off the table or shot down to a size that just doesn't concern your opponent.    The same could be said about 14 BG.  They still only rock a 5+ save and will most likely be the target of shooting or magic for a turn to bring them to a level your opponent doesn't care about.

 

I love BG and have 24 of them painted up; however, they just don't provide what the CoK's do.  You get 2+ saves, S6 on the charge, ASF and MP means you will hit and wound with nearly all of the attacks.  If you dropped the BG (I know the dilema) you could get the 10 CoK's, possibly a chariot (CoC are extremely good) to support your knights on a charge, and get some extra points to keep your characters and maybe add 2 RBT's and bring that unit of Dark Riders to 10.

 

Or, you could drop the knights, add a second hydra to support a block of 24 BG.  The BG will need support during combat.  They can stay in the grind with a re-rollable 10 Stubborn test but will need something to add extra combat damage.

[BeaverBeliever]

Hope you can make it!

[Fixxer]

Sometimes you take a charge with a small unit of fragile stubborn troops to set up countercharges with heavy cav/ hydra/ manticore in any order or combination.

 

New comers with a serious desire to win try to dominate the game with their play style, which many of us old school ORDOS don't like. GTs and many store tourneys are filled with that mentality....That's why the OFCC exists. I don't like playing different people playing the same exact armies, it's more common now than it ever was. NtK is not a new player, but has been away for a while, I think your list well represents a capable/ fun army in the "spirit".

 

I think it's negligible to swap anything in this army... Play it how it is first and against different armies to find where it lacks. Back in an old school Warhammer of control and balance this army fits, it has all the elements it needs to be successful, you just have to play it right. If you want to "Maximize"... Go with MNs advice.

[lustriangod2]

I play competitive no matter what venue I play in. That's just me, I try and bring nicely painted army that gets a few browsers. I hope that my work would enthuse other hobby goers. I have been guilty of bringing a tough list that has made other players mad, I have also been that guy that has gotten his behind handed to him from very scary lists, but that's the game in a nut shell. I learn from every game I play, I learn from almost every player I play against. Either tacticis or painting and modeling techniques. I agree pick an army you will love, you will be putting a lot of time into your army.

[Fixxer]

Not saying that I dont play competitively when I play, I just like to include my own personality in  my army choices and try not to pretend that its cool to play lists that are optimized for power. I dont feel like its fun for any of my opponents, just like I dont think its fun when people purposely build an army that isnt competitive or is lacking. Its all about balance and having tactical flexibility so that all of your games arent RPS or decided during deployment or a 6 diced spell that annihilates 1200 points off the table because its all stacked in a Deathstar. This style of game annoys me to no end and I see it A LOT.

 

Just gotta voice those old school methods every once in a while. 

[MexicanNinja]

Sometimes you take a charge with a small unit of fragile stubborn troops to set up countercharges with heavy cav/ hydra/ manticore in any order or combination.

 

... NtK is not a new player, but has been away for a while...

 

... Go with MNs advice.

I understand that he's not a new player.  I also understand what you are saying about his list.  However, he did ask about advice on his list to be able to deal with different threats.  I do have experience playing both BG and CoK's.  The problem with 14 is that they just wont get you the outcome you are trying to achieve and without the knights, he has no answer for units with good armour saves.  1+/2+/3+ armour save units are pretty common with a lot of lists.  Not only that but the S4 halberds wont have a huge impact against T5/T6 monters, which again aren't uncommon any more with the current meta of 8th.

 

All I was/am trying to do is give him some advice with an army which is mostly S3 with some options for S4 or higher units.  Again, 14 BG at 2400 points isn't going to do much for his army.  My suggestions were only trying to enhance his army to what his original post asked for.

 

Even when I take a unit of 24 BG, I get into a lot of situations where I am slowly loosing the grind battle and my heavy hitters are tied up with other threats my opponent has.  The dual Hydra I was suggesting isn't the same as before.  They still do great things, but without the ward save your opponent has a higher chance of knocking it out early on.  As for the other suggestions I made, it's more for survivability than anything else.  They still have elf stat lines and take damage when engaged.  Again, my suggestions were only meant to help enhance his army and the units he is currently fielding, they have nothing to do with "maximizing".

[MexicanNinja]

Not saying that I dont play competitively when I play, I just like to include my own personality in  my army choices and try not to pretend that its cool to play lists that are optimized for power. I dont feel like its fun for any of my opponents, just like I dont think its fun when people purposely build an army that isnt competitive or is lacking on purpose. Its all about balance and having tactical flexibility so that all of your games arent RPS or decided during deployment or a 6 diced spell that annihilates 1200 points off the table because its all stacked in a Deathstar. This style of game annoys me to no end and I see it A LOT.

 

Just gotta voice those old school methods every once in a while. 

I hear and understand what you are saying; however, the fact is the meta has drastically changed for 8th.  The current meta for 8th isn't the same as when this edition first came out.  With the introduction of all the MC/MI/Monsters out there in nearly every book now, the options for many armies have changed in order to just deal with those threats.  A unit of 20 or less infantry, more often than not, struggle against 8-12 MI.  Most infantry just don't produce the same results as MI/MC/Monsters.  This is why you need to ensure you have tools to counter this when you do make an all-comers list.

 

14 BG won't do much against a unit of 12 Ironguts (common site in Ogres), heck even my 24 BG struggled to do anything significant against raindogs 8 treekin.  How do you counter that?  You do so with knights.  Why knights?  You now take away stomps and thunderstomps, have a much better armour save, and can put out more hurt on the charge.  Most elf units, from any of the 3 books, aren't meant for the long combat grinds.  Again, in the current meta, if you have units of 20 or less, you really need to think about the staying power they have and what units you can use to increase their surivability.

[lustriangod2]

Not saying that I dont play competitively when I play, I just like to include my own personality in  my army choices and try not to pretend that its cool to play lists that are optimized for power. I dont feel like its fun for any of my opponents, just like I dont think its fun when people purposely build an army that isnt competitive or is lacking. Its all about balance and having tactical flexibility so that all of your games arent RPS or decided during deployment or a 6 diced spell that annihilates 1200 points off the table because its all stacked in a Deathstar. This style of game annoys me to no end and I see it A LOT.

 

Just gotta voice those old school methods every once in a while.

 

By the way Matt. I learned a lot about Warhammer by you beating me with your Skaven. And I thank you for that and those games. We need to get more games in.

[Fixxer]

I totally agree Mike, its always fun. Lets play a game soon, Ill PM you about it. 

[McNathanson]

Thanks guys.  

 

MN I think you're right, the CoKs really become a totally different unit at 5 models.  And I think they look a lot cooler at size 10, too… just more like a "centerpiece" unit.  So to fit the Reapers, I'd have to drop the BG.  Despite the fact that they aren't super tough especially at 14, I'm not gonna do that, they are my favorite models and the reason I first built up my Dark Elf army back in 2003!  So I think I'll just have to do without my Reapers… if I play someone with a lot of low-AS stuff, or with war machines I can't get to, oh well, I will just count on good old luck and play skill :)  

 

Fixxer that's a great reminder.  Don't worry though, I'm not looking to optimize for victory.  I hope my choices make that obvious.  I think in a DE list built to win games, I would have no Darkshards, Corsairs, or Black Guard at all.  I would have Dark Riders in units of 10 as my core, an L4, Warlocks, and a pair of Hydras.  I might have Cold One Knights as a threat but probably instead would have a pair (or 3) of Chariots.  Etc.  So my army really is in no way built to be a winner.  Just like back in 2003 when I first picked up the Dark Elves (and they kinda sucked) I'm trying to make it fun, make it look like an army, and build it for interesting games.  That's why I phrased my question the way I did.  I didn't ask "how can I make it better?" I said "I also would like to not find that I have no answer for a lot of common threats."  I think MN's advice regarding low AS armies was right to that point.  

Like he said, I asked!

 

Anyway, those of you who played back when I played know I'm not out to be no-fun to play, or to build a list that plays itself, etc.  Just making sure I don't have a giant gaping hole against the current meta that'll make my games uninteresting :)



 

Thanks for the feedback,


Nathan

[Fixxer]

Im not really worried about you optimizing, I know you dont play like that . Im just voicing my opinion that small units of elite infantry aren't "useless". 

 

I understand the threat of MI and MC and Im saying your original list has everything it needs to deal with that. You have 10 CoKs, a manticore, and a hydra. Lets throw in that level 4 using dark magic, which can wreck some big tough stuff on the field.  I just think any changes you made would completely overhaul the ability of the list. I would say less characters, but I always consider a hero on a flying monster a rare choice, so its hard to say. Your list is really cool and capable, I just really like it. 

 

What would you cut to get the BG up to 24? Do you even own the models? I want to discourage you from putting those models on your shelf thinking that the current meta makes them ineffective at the size you are running them, that is hogwash.  Its all about match ups, which we all know dont always work out, but small stubborn units are awesome and Im just not reading elven playstyle when someone is telling you to make that unit bigger for "the grind". Elves dont grind... especially really expensive ones with no ward save.

 

I also understand that MN answered your question, I disagree with his analysis.  I hope there is nothing wrong with that, in fact Ive met MexicanNinja and had a great conversation about Warhammer, Im not trying to be rude or anything.

@ MN, I really like your enthusiasm for the game, we are just on a different page when it comes to elven tactics, which wouldnt surprise me, I play HE and you play DE.  

[MexicanNinja]

No worries fixxer, I just didn't want to come across wrong.  I am still having a hard time adjusting to the Ordo way of fantasy.  I was raised in a super competivie community and that's all I new for 7 years.  I love what Ordo represents; however, it's hard to brush off over 7 years of playstyle.  When I build a list, I have a very hard time not assuming that opponents will take X-Y-Z  and instead go with F-G-H (these being the non optimal choices).

[McNathanson]

Thanks again guys for the great discussion!

I spent a little quality time with my little friend army builder, and came out with a list I really like!  I focused on increasing the survivability of my units, because I love them.  I kept the unit sizes as is, and just messed with magic items a little.  I think it'll be fun!  I've finalized my list and sent it to Iraf so we'll just see how it goes (still hoping I can attend the Brawl!)

 

Hope to game with you guys sometime soon,

Nathan

 

[McNathanson]

BTW since I can't make the tournament, I apologize for taking up your time but I really did appreciate the discussion.  Thanks especially MexicanNinja and Fixxer… you both made great points and it was helpful to read your thoughts on this.

 

If you're curious, I had made the following changes:

Lord - Ogre Blade, Ring of Hotek, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon - my thinking here is that the Crown of Command was only really there for solo charges by the Lord out of his unit, because otherwise I wouldn't choose to charge my CoKs into a losing combat… they are my only serious "should be able to win most combats" unit.  So out with the Crown.  And, I realize that if I want to be able to take on Big Bad Enemy Heroes, the Black Amulet is a great choice.  But instead of trying to take them head-on, I decided I will try to work around them, and instead, make the rest of my army more durable.  The Ring goes a long way to keeping both my CoKs and Black Guard on the table.  So in with that.  That left me 10 points to give him some increased survivability.  Charmed Shield is a steal for a model in a unit that likely only sees his first hit in a challenge… and with 5 points the IronCurse Icon is a great item in a unit of 10 models costing what the CoKs do… even if it just saves one guy every few games, it has more than paid for itself.

 

Quick question speaking of the Charmed Shield: how do people generally work out the mechanics of that in a multi-hit scenario (say a challenge where my opponent got 3 hits)?  I imagine my opponent would roll to hit, then before rolling to wound, I would roll the 2+ and remove one die from the hits.  But there are other ways it could be played especially if there were other item rules in play that I'm not aware of… what do you guys do?

 

After that change to the Lord, I had the Dawnstone back to give to my BSB, along with the Sword of Might and Enchanted Shield… so, done.

 

I also had 10 points left and gave the L4 the Seed of Rebirth, figure it works out to around 1 more wound on average, a better expenditure of points (given that 10 isn't enough to add a model to any of my units) than say a herald for my Dark Riders or whatever.

Anyway that's all the changes I had made coming up to the Black Sheep Brawl.  I'm really bummed I won't get to play, getting in a bunch of games against different armies would have been really fun and instructional!  I'll just have to find a way to make it to some Ordo game nights, but it ain't the same as a tournament setting!

 

Have fun you lucky dogs ;)

[MexicanNinja]

Nice changes, and it's great that you were able to receive any kind of advice on this thread.

 

Here's the answer for your charmed shield question.  Yes, you discard a hit on a 2+, so the die roll is made after the hits rolls but prior to rolling to wound.