IG with desperate DE

[Guest]

Slowly collecting DE. Planing to make them their own army, not allies, but will take a bit of time to get them there. Meanwhile, DE allies...

 

So, for desperate DE, I'm thinking about two, maybe three roles.

 

First, alternate AT options. Both the haywire and lance are things my IG lack access to. As far as I can tell, the lance functions against the aquilla strongpoint, so it's a pretty strong option there.

 

Second, Webway base defense. Pretty simple tactic, put a webway right by back-field/mid-field objectives with infantry DE in reserve. Webway is nice for desperate allies because it isn't a DE unit, so shouldn't trigger one eye open, but does allow my DE to defend/attack objectives. The Allied DE can't hold the objectives, but they have some decent options to threaten an enemy unit that comes to the objective. It's interesting to note that haywire grenades can be thrown, so if a unit arrives from a webway portal, it might be unable to assault, but a thrown grenade should be reasonably impressive for a cheap unit (like five wyches at 60pts), especially against bigger targets.

 

For third, Fortification Defense. BS4 stock, with BS 6-7 on HQs. Units aren't durable, but gain durability from killing. A fortification with a weapon that can use their BS would be pretty impressive. Given that the SA book allows assaulting out, seems like a fortification would be pretty ideal for DE assault units. Also, scourges make an ideal ranged unit for a tall tower, as if they are forced to flee off, the JP infantry don't take impact tests.

 

Anyway, this what I'm looking at so far:

 

HQ?

Elite?

Troops Wyches (5, haywire, maybe agonizer)

-Dedicated Raider (Lance)

Troops Wyches (5, haywire, maybe agonizer)

-Dedicated Raider (Lance)

Fast Attack Scourges (5, not sure on weapons yet, probably heat lances or dark lances)

Heavy Support Ravanger or Void Bomber (or MC if using webways)

 

Thoughts?

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

You cannot assault from the Webway Portal.  So if you're going to bring in a nasty surprise on someone, make it NASTY.  Kabalite Trueborn pack a punch, can be soooo anti-tank and will be effective the round they appear. 

 

Grotesques (aberation with Scissorhands)?  YES PLEASE!  A unit of them with Urien and you're golden.  They just pound on things so hard and take a beating so well.  T5, 3 wounds, and they can get in a Raider the round they come on and assault afterwards whether the raider is killed or not. 

 

Just some thoughts.

[intrizic]

a favorite DE unit of mine are the Trueborn w/ 2x S.cannons in a venom, it's like two venoms in one, and it's fairly cheap

[Guest]

a favorite DE unit of mine are the Trueborn w/ 2x S.cannons in a venom, it's like two venoms in one, and it's fairly cheap

I'm lost on the venom. 55pts is spendy when a raider is just 60pts. Raider has the lance at 36" and nightvision, while the venom just has poisoned weapons. I'm not overly impressed with poison when it's not accompanied with low AP, especially now that poisoned weapons are no longer defensive (5th/4th ed.). The Distengrator is pretty awesome too. Yeah, more shots, but more shots needed to kill stuff (like MEQ). The in-built flicker field is nice, but I'd much rather a 45pt vehicle that could upgrade for the stock 15pts, than a 60pt vehicle with it built in.

 

Anyway, I'm set on the raiders. Bought a ravanger and ordered two more once I decided I liked the kit. So long as I don't glue the sponsons, the ravanger is a raider when I need the HS slots free. Main need for this is in apocalypse games, which I play from time to time, as the ravangers will be wanted in increased numbers in apocalypse.

 

Bought the scourges and wyches too. Don't need to field all in one list, but I like these guys.

-Pax

[WestRider]

Poison is all about volume of fire, which Venoms provide. Remember that a fast Vehicle like that can always fire two Weapons at full BS unless it goes Flat Out, so you're tossing out 12 BS4 Poisoned shots every Turn even while moving 12". If you're going that far, the Trueborn only add Snap Shots, but they toss on another 8 BS4 shots if you move up to 6", and another full 12 if you stand still. That's a couple of Wounds per Turn on anything with a 3+ Save, from Sister of Battle to WraithKnight.

[Guest]

Poison is all about volume of fire, which Venoms provide. Remember that a fast Vehicle like that can always fire two Weapons at full BS unless it goes Flat Out, so you're tossing out 12 BS4 Poisoned shots every Turn even while moving 12". If you're going that far, the Trueborn only add Snap Shots, but they toss on another 8 BS4 shots if you move up to 6", and another full 12 if you stand still. That's a couple of Wounds per Turn on anything with a 3+ Save, from Sister of Battle to WraithKnight.

Hmmm....

-Pax

[Guest]

I think I'm going with my original plan of AT for the desperate DE. I'm looking at this, for now:

 

HQ Duke 150pts

Troops Wyches (5, haywire, character w/blast pistol) 85pts

-Raider (Lance) 60pts

Troops Wyches (5, haywire, character w/blast pistol) 85pts

-Raider (Lance) 60pts

FA Scourges (5, 2x Lances, character) 150pts

HS Ravager (3x Lances) 105pts

 

Total Allied DE 695pts.

 

So, for for reasoning, I've got method to my maddness.

 

I'm hesitant to include Kabalite Warriors/trueborn due to the FAQ:

 

Q: What happens if your force contains Duke Sliscus but does not
contain any Kabalite Warriors or Kabalite Trueborn, as the Serpent’s
Venom special rule says he must deployed with one of those units? (p51)
A: He will deploy like any other independent character.

I lose a lot of HQ flexibility if I include the Kabalite units. He'll join a wych unit.

 

For wyches, they DS in their raiders. On the drop, I try to land 11" from the target, I disembark 6" from the landing zone, then I have 6" on the blast pistol and, I think, 8" on the haywire. That's 1-2 HP of damage to a vehicle target. Then I also have the Dark Lance on the raider for another 0-1 HP of damage to the initial target or another. 145pts for the unit that does 1-3 HP of damage on the drop. That's about what I'd pay for a dreadnought in a pod. Plus, should they destroy the target, that's a pain token. Main weak point is that they are a very vulnerable unit to interceptor weapons.

 

Scourges have lances because I have a specific role in mind for them. I'm thinking about getting a Fortress of Redemption. That unit would be on the top tower, which would put them 6" from anything IG (vertically 6" away). The Jump packs mean that they can get down, should they want to or be forced to flee off, while being able to keep 6" from my IG. Character is there for the increased leadership, as them fleeing into my backfield IG could prove a huge problem.

 

Ravanger will likely DS too, especially given his ability to fire all weapons at full BS on the drop (aerial assault, as DS vehicles count as moving at crusing speed). 

 

So, if we assume they arrive on a single turn, I have 5x lances deepstriking, 2x thrown haywire grenades, 3x blast pistols, plus the non-DS 2x lances from the scourges in the tower. I think I could probably take down a super heavy with that...maybe not a revenant, but it's a pretty solid DS AT force. It would also probably melt to a TAU army with heavy interceptor....

-Pax

[ChaosGerbil]

Ravagers are one of the best bargains in the game if you ask me. The ultimate glass cannon for about 100 points. Even with all their heavy weapons guard can still struggle with AT, since they are BS3. Most Guard units aren't super durable

 

The trouble I see with your plan is that you have 5 units, 7 counting transports, with Desperate allies that could potentially get really messy.

 

I'd rather take a cheap homunculus, one troops choice in a raider, and a ravager... since I like to spend a lot on IG tanks and still have tons of scoring bodies.

 

Your Scourges plan is novel though, that could work. What if you took Leman Russes with the Fortress, it is a lot of points but also a lot of AV 14.

[Guest]

Ravagers are one of the best bargains in the game if you ask me. The ultimate glass cannon for about 100 points. Even with all their heavy weapons guard can still struggle with AT, since they are BS3. Most Guard units aren't super durable

 

The trouble I see with your plan is that you have 5 units, 7 counting transports, with Desperate allies that could potentially get really messy.

 

I'd rather take a cheap homunculus, one troops choice in a raider, and a ravager... since I like to spend a lot on IG tanks and still have tons of scoring bodies.

 

Your Scourges plan is novel though, that could work. What if you took Leman Russes with the Fortress, it is a lot of points but also a lot of AV 14.

Idea is that the IG hang back, while the DE present a forward postion. In theory, they should never be within 6" of each other all game. I might include the Vendettas, though I think we measure to the hull of the flyer for just about all purposes, so I think keeping them away should be easy enough unless I plan to disembark troops.

 

I've found my IG lacking in AT on two fronts: 1) I can't be mobile enough to strike from behind or reliably DS a melta team into postition (stormtroopers are just too expensive). 2) I have no alternative options for AT. Basically, I have to shoot the target to destroy it and that shot is either with raw strength or via armor bane. Raw strength has proved lacking against AV15 fortifications (something the lances excel against) and often against AV14. Armor bane usually works if it hits, but IG have limited options to actually get it to position I'm stuck between Vanquisher's accuracy, Medusa's Durability, and melta's lack of mobility.

 

For mobile melta, the melta cannon hellhound is very lacking, as are the MM hellhounds (which are also pretty expensive, IMO). the vendetta DS melta is all kinds of fail (dangerous if the scatter...). The DS stormtroopers have a ridiculous price tag, but are moderately effective. The only other unit I've seen reasonably good results with is the MG rough riders, but they really suffer because the models look more impressive than the unit is, so they tend to draw more firepower than they deserve, which makes them effectively useless (75pts for 2x MGs that can move 12" and fire is great, but they get priority targeted over lascannon heavy weapon teams left in the open...).

 

I can techically field melta bomb vets, but without any assault vehicles, I've had a monster of a time getting these to function unless the enemy comes to me.

 

Marbo can actually be a decent unit for rear strikes, but he often fails me at crucial moments, enough that I've stopped fielding him.

 

A friend runs desperate Khorne with his TAU and uses them in a similar way to good effect. His tau hang back while his desperate daemons push the advance. It's very impressive, and this will likely be less impressive, but still pretty neat.

-Pax

[ChaosGerbil]

I field a Bastion Breacher Medusa in every guard list. It's a huge target but if it lives reliably blows up high AV.

2D6 + 10 from downtown is pretty damn nice, and against a building or land raider it doesn't miss very often. 

Hmm maybe I need to try and build a second one.

 

Plan X is to mass heavy weapons.

I'm going to try fielding a ton of weapon teams as when you have only 1-3 squads they die quickly. I'll pair this with some Sabre platforms where FW is allowed. TL Lascannons with interceptor can get the job done in enough numbers. You can order IG weapon teams to get TL with the right HQ. Vendettas are awesome, also with TLL and with hover mode can get rear shots.

[Guest]

I field a Bastion Breacher Medusa in every guard list. It's a huge target but if it lives reliably blows up high AV.

2D6 + 10 from downtown is pretty damn nice, and against a building or land raider it doesn't miss very often. 

Hmm maybe I need to try and build a second one.

 

Plan X is to mass heavy weapons.

I'm going to try fielding a ton of weapon teams as when you have only 1-3 squads they die quickly. I'll pair this with some Sabre platforms where FW is allowed. TL Lascannons with interceptor can get the job done in enough numbers. You can order IG weapon teams to get TL with the right HQ. Vendettas are awesome, also with TLL and with hover mode can get rear shots.

I don't mean to belittle the IG, though I may have done so, I just want a different solution to AV15 and super heavies.

 

I bought the fortress of redemption tonight. Huge box. Very cool kit. Should be fun.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

55 heavy weapons squads and.... creed!

[ChaosGerbil]

I have 31 teams and 5 sabre platforms, is that close enough?

[Lord Hanaur]

You bet!

[Lord Hanaur]

I don't mean to belittle the IG, though I may have done so, I just want a different solution to AV15 and super heavies.

 

I bought the fortress of redemption tonight. Huge box. Very cool kit. Should be fun.

-Pax

 

Fortress of Redemption is the Devil.

[Guest]

55 heavy weapons squads and.... creed!

But this is the very issue. Against AV15, lascannons can't do anything but glance it on 6s, and that wound be fine if I could realistically glance a fortification to death. An aquilla manned by 5 space marines with require 15 glances to realistically remove the regular PA marines. I'm looking at 90 hits to get those 15 glances. And I'm looking at 180 lascannon shots to get those 90 hits. Not exactly a realistic solution.

 

Against super heavies, sure, they're pretty awesome, but they also get killed off pretty quick too (nothing like T3, 2 wounds, and 5+ saves to mount on a 40pt lascannon team...). A good number of even the baneblade super heavies can ignore cover with a huge blast that just rapes the heavy weapon teams. Personally, I haven't found the HW teams to be worth their salt, with or without escalation.

 

For my Fortress of Redemption, not completely sure how I'll run it. HW teams certainly have more value on the inside of the building, as it makes them both fearless and not as vulnerable to shooting. Higher BS also grants more value to certain sections of the building, given the emplaced weapons. It would be logical to mix similar shooting types together, like a heavy weapon team of mortars in the section with the emplaced barrage weapon...(love how mortars can fire from the inside...).

-Pax

[Guest]

Okay, got a game in. List was a hodge podge of units I've been wanting to try for the planetary empires league:

 

IG+DE (with INQ detachment) 1800pts

 

INQ

OM Inquisitor (Warlord, Hellrifle)

 

IG

Primaris

Vets (10, 3x GL, ML)

Vets (10, 3x GL, ML)

 

DE

Duke

Wyches (5, Champion with Agonizer, Haywire Grenades)

-Raider (Lance)

Wyches (5, Champion with Agonizer, Haywire Grenades)

-Raider (Lance)

Scourges (5, 2x Dark Lances)

Ravager (3x Dark Lances)

 

Fort

Fortress of Redemption

 

LoW

Hellhammer

 

Opponent was a "joel," I think, with TAU+Eldar.

 

TAU

Ethereal

Riptide

Riptide

Broadsides (3)

Broadsides (3)

Kroot (Blob, sniper rounds)

Kroot (Blob, sniper rounds)

Kroot (Blob, sniper rounds)

Skyray

Skyray

 

Eldar

Farseer (Bike)

Wraithknight

Eldar Bikes (3, cannon)

Eldar Bikes (3, cannon)

 

Deployment was vanguard strike, mission was emperor's will, night fight affected turn 1 and I went first.

 

Not sure on turns, early turns were slow, but my army was pretty few in number so later turns whizzed by. I did lose, though I didn't get wiped and game ended turn 7.

 

For game highlights and unit by unit evaluations:

 

Hellhammer.

Got first blood (and warlord) when it hit and wiped clean the ethereal and a broadside unit (of 3) with one blast from it's main cannon. S10, AP1, and cover denial was very impressive, though I did roll hits just about every time, so this game might not be a good one to justify this unit. Broadsides were wiped by end of turn 2 thanks to this guy, mostly solely. Destroyed one of the skyrays too.

 

INQ detachment

INQ warlord rolled the orbital bombardment trait and nuked the enemy early game. A bit helpful. Another build is probably needed. Still, glad warlord wasn't the IG one...

 

Vets.

This build is lacking. I need to switch up their weapons or switch back to a platoon, this unit was fine in chimeras, but doesn't work in other transports/roles. In this particular game, demolitions would have been a pretty solid upgrade.

 

Primaris

Perfect so long as not the warlord. Fails if warlord.

 

Fortress - Icarius bunker

As noted by abuse puppy, this one was targeted early on. Not horrible, especially for cost, might want void shields here.

 

Fortress - Walkway

Needs a better unit inside. Otherwise fine. As it lacks weapons, not a huge loss if captured.

 

Fortress - Silo Bunker

Amazing all game. Barrage for pinning checks, high strength shots, good field of vision, barrage weapon with AV14 on all sides.

 

Fortress - Tower

Pretty awesome for height, not amazing for any other reasons. I will need to find a better transportation system for this one. Might need to just get a car....

 

Scourges

Certainly a good spot for them, being in that top tower, but they die quick and power from pain targets were not found easy. Might want to start them with a homunculus (spelling?) for a free pain token, as they tend to draw small arms fire more than anything.

 

Ravager

DSed and mishaped. Ongoing reserve, meanwhile scourges got wiped. On arrival I DSed the Ravager to the top of the tower. An awesome spot. It did get destroyed, but if night shields, it would have been safe. I will certainly need to experiment with this one again.

 

Raiders and Wyches

Both DSed and mishaped. Opponent put duke one in back corner and other in front of his interceptor units. Not the best game for these guys.

 

Duke

Amazing and the reason I didn't get wiped. Got locked with farseer on an objective and stayed locked for turns 5-7. Prescience farseer Vs shadowfield on DE characterv with 5 supporting models....Oh, there was a damaged riptide there too, but duke killed it turn 4 and then used glorious intervention to save my primaris from his challenge with the farseer (turn 5-7). Not sure I needed the duke, but I was thoroughly impressed with both the DE poisoned weapons and the shadowfield. I doubt he was worth his points, but I was still impressed with this one.

 

-Pax

[Guest]

Got a second game in with the above list. Opponent was a newer player a GG. Pure IG and using 5th tactics. Unfortunately, the above list still only has two scoring units, so it was again, an uphill battle. I did play softer once it became clear that my super-heavy inclusion was leaning the player to a ragequit - first games against super heavies seem to always do this. Still, got more evaluation of my list and it's components.

 

Hellhammer.

Again, pretty awesome. Too many points and the low range really limits it's survivability. Lost it both games, though I'm pretty confident that the more recent game I could have done much better if I wasn't feeling empathetic towards the new player.

 

INQ detachment

Orbital again. Certainly worth the orbital and as an extra IC, but I really should replace this one.

 

Vets.

Didn't shoot all game. Survived and shot fortress weapons, but nothing impressive.

 

Primaris

Another unit I didn't really use.

 

Fortress - Icarius bunker

Didn't even get shot at all game.

 

Fortress - Walkway

This section is pretty useless.

 

Fortress - Silo Bunker

Useful, though in this game, the fragstorm would have been about as useful. It was mostly used to force pinning checks on IG blobs.

 

Fortress - Tower

Useless.

 

Scourges

Killed two units, but nothing worth their points. Issue was that the enemy just wasn't shooting at them and wasn't in range.

 

Ravager

DSing these is probably a mistake. Model seems to mishap a lot in my care.

 

Raiders and Wyches

Mishap issues again. This time, wyches worked as intended, DSing, disembarking, throwing haywire. Nothing that special. A melta team would have been more useful.

 

Duke

Not worth the points, but still useful for his wargear. I think I'll replace him with either a shadowfield+blast pistol archon or a homoculus for the early pain token.

 

Desperate DE allies

Not impairing or granting advantages that an equal force of IG would offer at the same point costs. If I'm to continue to use desperate DE allies, they need to be more than just an alternate appearance for my primary, they need to be useful more than similar units in my primary would be.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

Ravagers don't really need to DS, given their range.  Normal reserves generally works fine if you want to conserve their firepower til the enemy anti-tank abilities have been reduced.

 

An Aegis line can kind of help you manage their timing.

[Guest]

Ravagers don't really need to DS, given their range.  Normal reserves generally works fine if you want to conserve their firepower til the enemy anti-tank abilities have been reduced.

 

An Aegis line can kind of help you manage their timing.

Yeah, I agree. Been concluding that between night shields and flicker fields, starting the DE on the table would likely be a better call than the DS. The Duke, while useful, isn't worth the points unless I had a larger DE presence.

 

Aegis for the communications? I'll think on that one.

 

Meanwhile, what about Ravagers and Raiders with the Disintegrator cannons?

 

I did the math on them. 3 shots, 2 hits, usually a wound AP2. Against Riptides, looking at 1/3 hits wounding, so maybe 2 sure wounds with all three ravager weapons. Same odds with the lances, about 2 wounds. Against the higher toughness Wraithknights, looking at the lances with ~1 wound for three guns, and the distingrators failing pretty misserably. Seems iffy either way. Neither solve invulnerable or cover save issues.

 

How about the other DE vehicle upgrades?

 

Also need to get the IG working with more synergy. Might switch over to GK, as my paladin unit is getting closer to completion. Point is, the DE must be amazing to justify the desperate status.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah, I agree. Been concluding that between night shields and flicker fields, starting the DE on the table would likely be a better call than the DS. The Duke, while useful, isn't worth the points unless I had a larger DE presence.

 

Aegis for the communications? I'll think on that one.

 

Meanwhile, what about Ravagers and Raiders with the Disintegrator cannons?

 

I did the math on them. 3 shots, 2 hits, usually a wound AP2. Against Riptides, looking at 1/3 hits wounding, so maybe 2 sure wounds with all three ravager weapons. Same odds with the lances, about 2 wounds. Against the higher toughness Wraithknights, looking at the lances with ~1 wound for three guns, and the distingrators failing pretty misserably. Seems iffy either way. Neither solve invulnerable or cover save issues.

 

How about the other DE vehicle upgrades?

 

Also need to get the IG working with more synergy. Might switch over to GK, as my paladin unit is getting closer to completion. Point is, the DE must be amazing to justify the desperate status.

-Pax

I always use disintegrator Cannons on the Raiders and Ravagers.  Anti tank can come from a lot of places in the army.  You dont need them on those.

[Guest]

I always use disintegrator Cannons on the Raiders and Ravagers.  Anti tank can come from a lot of places in the army.  You dont need them on those.

Hmm...I really wish the scourges could take the distintegrator cannons. They'd fit much better with their stock weapons.

 

Anyway, I want some lances in the list. It's an important component for the army, as they present a very reliable solution to that AV15 bunker.

 

I was re-looking at the mandrakes recently. Not amazing with their stock equipment, but if manning a gun, they are still BS4 and nightvision, like other DE. They also have both an invulnerable save and stealth, making them reasonably durably on a building. Last, they can be taken in very small units at inexpensive costs. Just a thought, probably won't get them any time soon.

 

In general, I've been thinking that desperate allies are very well suited to manning a building, as the units are non-scoring anyway while inside. I also gain the nightvision rule for my building weapons, which is certainly not worthless. Really, for my IG, I should include a searchlight on the building sections with weapons, then man them with DE so that the IG can fire at illuminated targets without wasting shots.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

lances can come from Blasterborn, can come from normal warriors...  i mean theres really no need to put them on Raiders.  I could SEE a Ravager but  even then I'd be torn.

[Guest]

lances can come from Blasterborn, can come from normal warriors...  i mean theres really no need to put them on Raiders.  I could SEE a Ravager but  even then I'd be torn.

Oh, yeah, lots of lance sources in the DE book. I like the lances just because it's an alternate way to cope with high AV enemies, and it is otherwise a pretty awesome lascannon on a usually dirt cheap model (and ususally dirt cheap due to a sheer lack of durability...).

 

I'm liking the wych troops. They don't have the staying power of a "troop" unit, but they are desperate, so I'm not looking for that level of durability. I need them to kill and tie up things in assault that my IG will be impaired by. I:6, 4++ and paired weapons are all great things to cope with enemy units. The DE frag grenades, called plasma grenades, are also very impressive when thrown and are stock on the wyches. The haywire grenades are leagues better than the krak grenades too, even if pretty costly. 

 

Their t-shirts against shooting is an issue that should be addressed if I want them to work. I can go with the homonculus for a starting pain token, for a 6+/5+ to shooting, but it really doesn't help all that much, especially if they start in an exploding transport.... The DS transport method was okay, but not amazing for the points invested on the duke. I could try a webway, though that one seems like it's uses would be limited.

 

The idea that does seem pretty solid, is to use a building completely manned by desperate DE. Either the FoR or another. They should be able to acquire pain tokens via kills with manned weapons, which favors their high BS anyway. Nightvision is pretty awesome with those longer range weapons, especially if they were upgraded with searchlights. The building itself can be assaulted out of, too. Models inside the building are non-scoring, so have a desperate "contingent" haunting a building wouldn't be such a horrible plan. Hmmm....Next list maybe.

 

Big drawback with the building method is having some big stationary force near my IG lines that will impair them greatly should the models move near it...

-Pax