Tyranid rules check please

[intrizic]

Is this interpretation correct for the gargoyle blinding venom rule?

 

Often used as flying cover, Gargoyles have probably the nastiest melee ability in the entire Codex: Tyranids. Ever wonder why we have never seen large unit style units with access to blind? This is why. 10 Gargoyles are 60 points. 10 melee attacks that for each hit require an Initiative test or you suddenly become WS/BS 1 for a turn.. Every single hit this unit does in melee with their blinding venom causes a blind check is nasty,

[PumpkinHead]

I believe the blinding rule goes something like " any unit hit by a weapon with this special rule..."  Which in my mind says it is per weapon, so that would be many blinding checks.

[winterman]

It's more of an issue with the wording for blind USR and is not specific to gargoyles.  The rule:

 

"Any unit hit by a model or weapon with

this special rule must immediately take

an Initiative test. If the test is passed, all

is well - a shouted warning has caused

the warriors to avert their gaze. If the

Initiative test is failed, all models in the

unit are reduced to Weapon Skill and

Ballistic Skill 1 until the end of their

next turn. Should the attacking unit hit

themselves we assume they are prepared

and they automatically pass the test."

 

It does not really define well whether its one or more hits or every hit so is open to interpretation.  It is contentious and has not been FAQd.  In my opinion as a tyranid player there's not a strong enough case RAW to lean one wya or other so I'd play it more conservatively (1 test regardless of how many hits) but it's certainly arguable either way.

[WestRider]

As far as I can tell, the reason it comes up with Gargoyles is that they're the first time it's been possible for multiple Models in the same Unit to make Blind attacks.

 

Like Winterman, I think it best to play it conservatively, and assume one Test per Unit, but that can still get pretty hilarious if you pull off a big Multi-Charge or something.

[intrizic]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  I also posted the question on the Frontline gaming rules forum as well, I'll hit up the 11th company as well.  

 

As far as I can tell, the reason it comes up with Gargoyles is that they're the first time it's been possible for multiple Models in the same Unit to make Blind attacks.

I believe so as well WR.

[winterman]

Yeah I think the only thing else that can cause multiple hits is the Swooping Hawk exarch with that one rifle he has and maybe the Black Legion Relic/Psychic power (although not sure on that one wording wise).  Single models though

[Guest]

Only one weapon, not multiples types of blinding weapons.

 

I think if you had two different types of blinding attacks from different sources, you could make a stronger argument for multiple tests. Likewise, I think two units of gargoyles would be a stronger argument for two tests against one unit, than 1v1 would be.

 

Though I will note that this one isn't really all that overpowered with any interpretation on the blinding rule. WS1 and BS 1 when accomplished in a assault at 1 attack per model at S3 ap- poisoned (6+) and the blind USR. The attack doesn't auto hit (WS3), isn't on a model with assault grenade (or equivalents), is jump infantry (dangerous through terrain) and is only base initiative 4 (so characters and eldar often swing at equal or higher initiative).

 

So, even if 1 test per hit, 30 gargoyles assault 10 tactical marines. They charge through cover, meaning that they lose ~4 models to dangerous (1/6 in danger, 1/6 passes armor saves). Marines swing first at intiative 4. Squad leader with CCW and BP has 3, others have 1 each, for a total of 12 swings. They hit on 3s, so 8 hits. They wound on 3s, so ~5 wounds and ~4 die. 22 gargoyles remain. They use blinding venom. 11 hits. 11 initiative tests, with marines passing on 2/3 of them (equal or under 4), so ~4 failures. In addition, gargoyles cause ~4 wounds, killing a single marine. Gargoyles lose combat by 3. If in synapse they stay locked, if they aren't, they check leadership at Ld 3, likely failing and with 50:50 odds of getting caught when they flee.

 

I didn't include gargoyle shooting prior to assault or SM overwatch, both would probably affect the outcome. Not charging though cover would certainly change things, but the tactical marines really should always have cover between them and their enemy for this sort of reason.

 

Also, blind units are not forced to snap, they can still fire flame throwers and other blast weapons.

-Pax

[intrizic]

http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/post67928.html#p67928

[WestRider]

Just so you know, this question is a huge firestorm over on The Tyranid Hive. It's one of a handful that come up and just destroy a thread once a week or so.

[intrizic]

That i didn't know, if you look at my link, Mike Brandt of Nova Open fame responded to my question, that more of less settles the matter for me.

[AbusePuppy]

I'm with Mike on this one, for whatever it's worth. One test per model.

[intrizic]

Thanks for weighing in AP

[Guest]

I still think it doesn't matter. In either case, it won't do much damage by itself.

 

The gargoyles are weak and any player that doesn't force them to charge through cover to get an assault on their unit, might just deserve WS1 and BS1 for a turn. BS1 isn't snap and WS 1 still means that the enemy requires 3s at best to hit and can still hit the enemy. You can still use other effects to lower or raise the enemy WS to 1, so it could end up WS1 vs WS1.

 

The gargoyles are cheap, yeah, but they are limited by slots of the FOC, so no more than 3x units per FOC (dataslates?). They aren't durable to overwatch or melee attacks, lack assault grenades and have lots of problems staying alive.

 

FAQ says that non-intiative units, like vehicles, auto pass the characteristic test (or are otherwise immune), so this one really applies only to models with an initiative score. In addition, there are quite a few units with blind immunity, like most of the TAU army...

 

If they really present a huge threat, dedicate a unit or two with anti-cover/anti-6+ armor....They're pretty abundant in almost every army.

-Pax

[WestRider]

@Pax: One reason this is really coming up right now is because of the Skyblight formation in the latest Dataslate, which brings 3 Broods of Gargoyles outside the FOC, plus they're Scoring and come back on a 4+ when the Unit's wiped.

 

More generally: I think both versions are plausible interpretations of the text. I chose to go with one Test per Unit not because I think that argument's stronger, but because that way I know I won't be screwing anyone over, and if it gets FAQed the other way, or I get to play in an event where it's ruled the other way, I get a bonus, instead of having something taken away from me if the ruling goes the other way.

[Guest]

@Pax: One reason this is really coming up right now is because of the Skyblight formation in the latest Dataslate, which brings 3 Broods of Gargoyles outside the FOC, plus they're Scoring and come back on a 4+ when the Unit's wiped.

 

More generally: I think both versions are plausible interpretations of the text. I chose to go with one Test per Unit not because I think that argument's stronger, but because that way I know I won't be screwing anyone over, and if it gets FAQed the other way, or I get to play in an event where it's ruled the other way, I get a bonus, instead of having something taken away from me if the ruling goes the other way.

Hmmm... does it make them fearless too? Can they recycle their synapse? If not, seems like gargoyles that revive will get hit with interceptor weapons and then flee off the table they just came on...Game is normal anti-bug tactics, kill the synapse, kill the big bugs, laugh as the little bugs flee.

-Pax

[Guest]

Oh, does this mean that the DA baseball bat of doom ("Mace of Redemption") would cause a blind test for each hit, or just 1 because it's just 1 weapon with blind?

-Pax

[WestRider]

At most, Blind triggers per Model or Weapon, not per Hit from a single Model/Weapon.

 

The Synapse doesn't recycle in that Dataslate, but you do get a Flyrant out of FOC. Triple Flyrant plus some supplemental ground Synapse should be solid enough, especially with how many fast threats that list can put up in the Opponent's face. We're talking a potential for 9 FMCs here.

[AbusePuppy]

The gargoyles themselves benefit from Blind to a moderate degree, because it lets them hit on 3s and forces the enemy to hit them on 5s. However, by and large it is used as a setup for a Monstrous Creature getting into the fight, since many of the MCs in the book have very mediocre WS values. Dropping some WS4/5/7/10 guy to WS1 makes a huge difference when every hit is a wound.

[Guest]

At most, Blind triggers per Model or Weapon, not per Hit from a single Model/Weapon.

 

The Synapse doesn't recycle in that Dataslate, but you do get a Flyrant out of FOC. Triple Flyrant plus some supplemental ground Synapse should be solid enough, especially with how many fast threats that list can put up in the Opponent's face. We're talking a potential for 9 FMCs here.

I didn't think they'd make it easy, but this doesn't sound terrible over powered either - tyranids aren't really short scoring units in most games anyway.

 

Can the mentioned gargoyles take adrenal glands? If not, I could run ork trucks into that formation and not expect any resistance at all....

 

-Pax

[galahad911]

I didn't think they'd make it easy, but this doesn't sound terrible over powered either - tyranids aren't really short scoring units in most games anyway.

 

Can the mentioned gargoyles take adrenal glands? If not, I could run ork trucks into that formation and not expect any resistance at all....

 

-Pax

 

Yes they can, but with 6-9 FMCs flying about, if you had any Ork trucks left after a couple turns you're playing an idiot.

[VonVilkee]

I didn't think they'd make it easy, but this doesn't sound terrible over powered either - tyranids aren't really short scoring units in most games anyway.

 

Can the mentioned gargoyles take adrenal glands? If not, I could run ork trucks into that formation and not expect any resistance at all....

 

-Pax

Fyi Pax, the gargoyles from the skyblight formation "Clown" score. Whati mean is if they are within range their scoring rules over other considerations, like other scoring or denial units in range.

[Guest]

Fyi Pax, the gargoyles from the skyblight formation "Clown" score. Whati mean is if they are within range their scoring rules over other considerations, like other scoring or denial units in range.

Westrider already mentioned it. Unit is still leadership 6 and must arrive via reserve, so interceptor weapons have pretty good odds to push them back off the table if they can force a morale check. They can't assault when they arrive, so you should be able to keep them off objectives for the last turn if you have a decent size force holding it anyway. Anti-Bug armies are always about killing the synapse, so this really doesn't change tactics much.

 

I sound unimpressed, not because the formation isn't dangerous, but because what is being described is not changing how players fight against tyranids. Really, it's just a tervigon variant, at least in very basic concept.

 

If concerned about the last turn. They can't move 1" from your units, can't assault when they arrive, so if you have enough models alive, even with that 12" move, they shouldn't be able to threaten the objective. Am I missing that they can assault from reserve?

-Pax

[galahad911]

Westrider already mentioned it. Unit is still leadership 6 and must arrive via reserve, so interceptor weapons have pretty good odds to push them back off the table if they can force a morale check. They can't assault when they arrive, so you should be able to keep them off objectives for the last turn if you have a decent size force holding it anyway. Anti-Bug armies are always about killing the synapse, so this really doesn't change tactics much.

 

I sound unimpressed, not because the formation isn't dangerous, but because what is being described is not changing how players fight against tyranids. Really, it's just a tervigon variant, at least in very basic concept.

 

If concerned about the last turn. They can't move 1" from your units, can't assault when they arrive, so if you have enough models alive, even with that 12" move, they shouldn't be able to threaten the objective. Am I missing that they can assault from reserve?

-Pax

 

Alright, so, with 3 devourer flyrants, 3+ crones with their flamers, and 2+ harpies with their long range blast guns, what interceptor units are living long enough to intercept gargs coming back on in the latter parts of a game. Just because you start with interceptors certainly doesn't mean you'll have them forever.

 

How the hell is someone being able to field 8 FMCs comfortably at 1850 *not* changing how you fight them?

[Guest]

TAU can put interceptor on just about everything....Tryanids do still struggle against buildings.

 

Alright, so, with 3 devourer flyrants, 3+ crones with their flamers, and 2+ harpies with their long range blast guns, what interceptor units are living long enough to intercept gargs coming back on in the latter parts of a game. Just because you start with interceptors certainly doesn't mean you'll have them forever.

 

How the hell is someone being able to field 8 FMCs comfortably at 1850 *not* changing how you fight them?

 

 

 

How the hell? Tyranids are always fought with the kill the synapse approach. Very few builds of bugs deviate from this approach. We kill the synapse, kill the support units, get the little bugs to flee, and then mop up. Just because the formation doesn't change my plan, you assume I mean it would be easy to do. It's tough, for sure, but the tactics really don't change and that's the truth.

-Pax