maulerfiend vs forgefiend

[Brother Glacius]

So I like this kit and am planning to have one if not two of these beasts in my CSM force. I have to say I'm a bit confused as to why the MF only has two attacks. I understand it can get an additional two attacks, but that seems pretty lame for  a melee only model. And then if you take away the cutters, then that is only two attacks a round. If this was an MC, then I could maybe see it working...but as a walker vehicle...seems like it is destined to get blown up before it ever reaches combat.

 

If that is the case, then the FF seems like the best choice. Am I missing anything?

[AgentP]

I think Maulers are a very solid choice.  They're very fast, with 12" fleet and basically ignoring terrain.   They can be in assault on turn two in many cases.  They're excellent for taking out vehicles.

[WestRider]

Note that the MaulerFiend has two PowerFists. That gives it the extra Attack for 2xCCW. Given that they pick up an extra from the Melta-Cutters, it generally works out to effectively be 4 Attacks, 5 on the Charge.

 

They are also shockingly fast. Very fun Unit, one of my faves from the new CSM Dex.

[Guest]

Both suffer from not being able to be taken in squadrons (1-3, like hellhounds). In addition, the mauler should really be a fast attack slot instead of a heavy slot. It would also be really nice if they had access to the CSM vehicle upgrades.

 

I do love both units. I don't have either, but the models look really good and they are interesting to face in games.

 

In terms of weak points, both suffer from range related issues (the hades don't suffer too bad, but they are out ranged by enemy lascannons and krak missiles). They compete for the same slots, which I really think limits what they could be to the army. Although their defenses are neat, they do suffer from being able to be damaged by most weapons.

 

Oh, the big horrible point is their Initiative 3, which has them swinging after marine krak grenades, after enemy dreadnoughts, and after enemy dreadknights.

[ChaosGerbil]

It's nice that they aren't fast attack, so you can combine Spawn with them or leave room for power choices like Heldrakes or bikes.

 

1 Maulerfiend will get shot up and die turn 1 or 2. With 2-3 Maulerfiends and spawn support, they will usually make it to combat Turn 2 or 3. Take nurgle spawn and keep them in cover, and avoid charging dedicated melee units.

 

Krak grenades on their own won't stop a MF, but watch out for power fists and melta bombs. If you have something like a bike squad rushing in too, you can challenge the sarge and kill them before they swing, or stop the model from fighting for a round or two.

 

I haven't tried the forgefiend but a plasma cannon head seems like a good upgrade. 200 pts. is spendy for a single vehicle though, and the Maulerfiends are only 125. The upside of the FFs is they can be backup anti-air, snapfiring yes but with 8 shots you will get 1 or 2 hits and force a grounding check at least.

[AbusePuppy]

I wouldn't bother with Plasma on the Forgefiend- it's just not a very good price or a very good gun, when you get down to it. The vanilla Fiend at least is a threat to light/medium tanks and an annoyance to aircraft. With access to Divination (via Tzeentch daemonic allies or the use of the Crimson's Laughter supplement and its artefacts) the Forgefiend actually becomes quite respectable, as does getting a lucky Skyfire/Targeting Relay objective during Big Guns Never Tire.

[ChaosGerbil]

I am convinced that the skyfire objectives were a deliberate balancing mechanism against the power of fliers, which very few organized events ever use. In fact I have not played a single game with mysterious objectives. On the downside only scoring units can use them, which limits usefulness... except during the BGNT mission you mentioned and to a lesser event Scouring.

 

My FF has a plasma head since it looks way cooler to me than the lizard face, I guess I could pretend it doesn't fire. 

[Guest]

I am convinced that the skyfire objectives were a deliberate balancing mechanism against the power of fliers, which very few organized events ever use. In fact I have not played a single game with mysterious objectives. On the downside only scoring units can use them, which limits usefulness... except during the BGNT mission you mentioned and to a lesser event Scouring.

 

My FF has a plasma head since it looks way cooler to me than the lizard face, I guess I could pretend it doesn't fire. 

I have played a few with the mysterious objectives. Main issue is just that it's one more thing to keep track of in 40k. Anyway, making scoring units skyfire is actually pretty impressive IF the enemy brings flyers. Flyers are very hit and miss, sometimes they bring lots and sometimes they don't.

 

I have been impressed by the forgefiend's ability to hit flyers. You can bolster it further with a divination psyker (tzeentch daemons), though I've never seen an opponent actually use much synergy in their CSM+CD army. You can also grimore the forge fiend or maulerfiend, as both are daemons. You can also take nurgle CSM psykers and get a de-buff that lowers toughness, then further de-buff it with the biomancy power that also de-buffs toughness. At that point, T6 creatures are now threatened by ID on forgefiends with both plasma and hades weapons, while T8 are now wounded on 2s. Both chaos books are very much synergy heavy in design.

[ChaosGerbil]

Yeah BS3 with rerolls is pretty nice, it shoots your odds up from 50% to 75% which is better than BS4. On 8 shots that helps, especially when snap firing.

 

I probably wouldn't waste the grimoire on him to be honest but it's an option. I think a 3++ Heldrake or a buffed up melee assault squad are better uses.

[Guest]

Yeah BS3 with rerolls is pretty nice, it shoots your odds up from 50% to 75% which is better than BS4. On 8 shots that helps, especially when snap firing.

 

I probably wouldn't waste the grimoire on him to be honest but it's an option. I think a 3++ Heldrake or a buffed up melee assault squad are better uses.

Was thinking the maulerfiend for the grimore. Use it at the start of the turn so he can charge a nasty unit. Could matter for overwatch and for assault phase 1 powers (like counter attack or hatred). It would also matter a ton against DW Knights, as they have that once per game S10 ap1 melee weapon (ap2 against non-CSM).

 

I think one of the slaanesh psychic tables can also buff initiative (random table, I think).

 

The helldrake could work too, but getting the grimore unit near the vehicle flyer would be challenging.

 

Could use the skyshield and the grimore together too.

[AbusePuppy]

I am convinced that the skyfire objectives were a deliberate balancing mechanism against the power of fliers, which very few organized events ever use. In fact I have not played a single game with mysterious objectives. On the downside only scoring units can use them, which limits usefulness... except during the BGNT mission you mentioned and to a lesser event Scouring.

 

Yeah, the problem with using the objectives as a balancer is that many armies can't take advantage of them the way Space Marines or Guard can and that they are extremely unreliable. It's occasionally helpful, but more often than not it does nothing.

[WestRider]

And even more so, they do prove very effective against FMCs in far more cases than they cause problems for Flyers, leading to further imbalance in that relationship.

[Chaos Lord Chris]

Basically, the effectiveness of the Maulerfiend goes something like this:

 

A lone Mauler is junk.

 

Two/Three Maulers are alright.

 

Two/Three Maulers supporting 2-3 units of Spawn or Bikers and 2 fast-moving CC HQs (Biker/Jugger Lords, Daemon Princes, Be'lakor, Greater Daemons if you ally) are freaking amazing.

 

The Forgefiend is always good. The Mauler really shines in a rushdown list, but will fall flat if you don't have in-your-face target saturation.