Just realized what's missing.

[peter.cosgrove]

so.. where's the leadership check when you fall back from combat?

[WestRider]

A Fall Back move in 8th is an orderly, intentional withdrawal. Fleeing in panic, which previously included Falling Back, now simply removes Models from the Game during the Morale Phase.

[peter.cosgrove]

right.. so, if you have LOW leadership it should be HARDER to accomplish this.. orderly intentional withdrawal yes/no? And if you are in combat with a unit with high leadership they should have an easier time deciphering your intention to orderly withdraw from combat yes/no? And then take advantage by hitting you from behind as you turn around to run away? So the best way to represent this would be some form of a leadership check yes/no? Higher leadership, more chance to accomplish this.. orderly intentional withdrawal, lower leadership.. lower chance.. yes/no?

[Guest]

8 hours ago, WestRider said:

A Fall Back move in 8th is an orderly, intentional withdrawal. Fleeing in panic, which previously included Falling Back, now simply removes Models from the Game during the Morale Phase.

And the big change is that a Fall Back move doesn't grant any special ability to move through enemy models. So if they lack fly, and you surround them, they can't Fall Back. Knights have a special rule to fall back over infantry, and there's probably a few others. 

As for fleeing, there's so many options to make you pass every moral check. And single model units don't test at all. You should rarely fail moral checks. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Leadership is basically desertion now.  Bergdhal checks is what we should call it..

[peter.cosgrove]

oh no. I get it. I got what it is, I just think it changes the mechanic a bit too much. It's always been the case when you are playing assaulty against shooty that you are safe once you get into CC. An army, to break or fall back, had to put together a lot of complicated stuff. But now, your assaulty army can get shot up pretty much no matter what, UNLESS you decide to be an ass and stick a hand through someone's arm or tank tread or whatever to keep them from "moving" your model so they can't fall back. Of course, the ass part is, "oh, you are falling back, well ok but you see that arm sticking through your model? you can't move that, at all" "uh, you have to keep your base on the ground when you move unless you are going up levels, you can't pick the model up so you can twist it around to clear my claw sticking through your model". "Dude, you CAN"T fall back, my sword is sticking through your model and you CAN'T move my model when you fall back, ok? I put that antenna there specifically to keep you from falling back"

[Lord Hanaur]

Well its actually a LOT bigger impact than it looks.  I did an article on it, but it affected the game SIGNIFICANTLY.

I think the most impactful thing that happened though was the elimination of Sweeping advances.  That was SO big.  

[WestRider]

5 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

oh no. I get it. I got what it is, I just think it changes the mechanic a bit too much. It's always been the case when you are playing assaulty against shooty that you are safe once you get into CC. An army, to break or fall back, had to put together a lot of complicated stuff. But now, your assaulty army can get shot up pretty much no matter what, UNLESS you decide to be an ass and stick a hand through someone's arm or tank tread or whatever to keep them from "moving" your model so they can't fall back. Of course, the ass part is, "oh, you are falling back, well ok but you see that arm sticking through your model? you can't move that, at all" "uh, you have to keep your base on the ground when you move unless you are going up levels, you can't pick the model up so you can twist it around to clear my claw sticking through your model". "Dude, you CAN"T fall back, my sword is sticking through your model and you CAN'T move my model when you fall back, ok? I put that antenna there specifically to keep you from falling back"

Or you can do it without any questionable shenanigans by actually surrounding one of their dudes. Get three Models in BtB with one, spread around it, and it's stuck unless it can Fly.

[Guest]

On November 3, 2017 at 12:28 AM, peter.cosgrove said:

so.. where's the leadership check when you fall back from combat?

Well, you do the fight phase and then resolve the moral phase. So if you lose guys in combat, you still take a moral check. And if you fail that, you lose guys. 

I suppose if you think of turns as circular, then the movement phase resolves after the moral phase, so fall back moves are resolved after succeeding your moral check (or not failing too badly). 

[peter.cosgrove]

3 hours ago, WestRider said:

Or you can do it without any questionable shenanigans by actually surrounding one of their dudes. Get three Models in BtB with one, spread around it, and it's stuck unless it can Fly.

But genestealers ftw!