Theory-Hammer: Adeptus Custodes

[Ish]

Thinking of putting together a mono-Custodes list. Hoping to get something that won’t get laughed off the table, but not necessarily looking for a guaranteed tournament winner. Main priority is low model count for easy transport, but hopefully something that will win at least as often as it looses.

The biggest liabilities for this list (other than the obvious “you’re going to be outnumbered by everyone!”) will probably be Flyers, Mortal Wounds, and Knights. I played mono-Deathwing for nearly three whole editions, so I’m not too worried about the outnumbering issue and actually kind of prefer it. I’m a masochist I guess.

If the enemy only has one or two aircraft, the salvo launcher equipped jetbikes can probably handle it, if they have a whole air wing (e.g. Elyssians) and/or a heavy flyer (e.g., Fire Raptor) then I’m probably just gonna have to suck it up and hope they have a bad time with their dice rolls. 

Mortal Wounds from psychic powers are mitigated somewhat by the Custodes’ 6+ Save against them. If the enemy only has one or two psykers, that should be enough to weather the attacks until I can get the Wardens/Terminators/Jetbikers into position to kill them. If it’s a full-on Smite Spam army, again, I’m just going to have to suck it up.

Mathhammer tells me that a full unit of axe-swinging Terminators backed up by a Shield Captain should be able to handle a Knight or similar super-heavy. In theory anyway... 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [64 PL, 1244pts] ++

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain [7 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Warlord, Hurricane Bolter, Relic: Auric Aquilis, Trait: Superior Creation, 

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield (x1)
. Guardian Spear (x3)

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. As Above

Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 215pts]
. As Above

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [15 PL, 315pts]
. Salvo Launcher (x3)

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [40 PL, 754pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (1 Extra Relic) [ –1 CP ]

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Relic: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [18 PL, 336pts]
. Castellan Axe (x4)

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe, Vexilla Magnifica

Vexillus Praetor in Allarus Terminator Armor [7 PL, 134pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

++ Total: [104 PL, 1998pts] ++

[Guest]

The  jetbikes should be able to charge enemy flyers, not just shoot them.

The custodes also have the BS 2+ land raiders and contemptors, so shooting aircraft shouldn't be a issue.

Don't think custodes need dedicated AA in 8e.

[Ish]

That’s why I’m not overly worried by Flyers, unless they start becoming a more common unit type. Since the “Flying Circus” lists seem to have fallen out of favor, I don’t usually see more than one or two on a table, if they do become popular in the future, a couple of Dreadnaughts should serve as a good counter.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ish said:

That’s why I’m not overly worried by Flyers, unless they start becoming a more common unit type. Since the “Flying Circus” lists seem to have fallen out of favor, I don’t usually see more than one or two on a table, if they do become popular in the future, a couple of Dreadnaughts should serve as a good counter.

Ah, misunderstood. Was thinking that you were worried about flyer armies. 

[Nathanvoodoo]

I’ve played solo custodes quite a bit. Knights aren’t too bad. The custodes have a stratagem that give them +1 to wound so even regular guardian spears do the job on knights and tanks. 

Vs strong psychic armies the custodes whither- I ran them with sisters of silence at ofcc for that very reason.

 

Really tho, their main weaknesses are their lack of strong shooting attacks and lack of speed. They get work done if they get to where they need to- and even a single custodian can really do quite a bit of damage. The jet bikes are a mega bullet sponge so get them across the board as quick as they can cause they will be focused down.

 

Ive put a lot of consideration into getting a Coronos  grav carrier just to see how much pressure I can put on my opponent by delivering a unit across the board quickly.

[Ish]

The downside to the Coronos is the financial cost and the difficulty in transporting it. I’d probably add a pair of Land Raiders if transport becomes a must have...  I’ll keep it in mind though.

[Nathanvoodoo]

I’ve thought about both. 

The grav just seems the superior choice. The addition of “fly”- extra transport capacity and movement speed really do the trick. It feels like a real transport, while the LR feels like a heavy weapons platform with guys inside. 

 

Basically with a LR I’d be forcing myself on a hard decision to shoot or advance every turn, while with the grav tank I’d just be advancing- no question.

 

in other news I wrote my custodes list for the apoc game and with three knights and a battalion of custodes I’m still only bringing 18 models in a 2500 point list.

 

[Ish]

That’s why I’m leaning towards foot sloggin’ Custodes. Deep Striking the Allarus Custodians (and Vexillia) to deal with any especially potent shooty threats, sloggin’ the Custodian Guard (along with the foot Captain and other Vexillia) onto or near any mid-field Objectives, planting my feet, and just holding my ground for as long as possible.

Custodes are pretty damn difficult to shift out of a spot they don’t want to give up.

[Nathanvoodoo]

They are both very fun and very frustrating. The army has fantastic stratagems and is just brutally points heavy so has a very hard time not taking allies. 

 

I’ve always wanted to drop five or six allurus terminators on a back line and throw the unleash the lions stratagem on em and just run all over their whole army. Just so fun.

 

A rumor is circulating that wardens and Trajan are gonna come down in points in chapter approved- which I’d love to see, cause they are both fantastic but just too expensive in an already super expensive army.

[Guest]

Regarding land raiders in this edition, the main thing that works against them is that the psychic buffs are only able to be cast once, so duplicate land raiders have less defensive buff potential. Since your army entirely lacks psykers, I think the paired land raiders have improved viability just because you don't have that option weighing on you. 

Oh, regarding advances, the land raider should really only advance once per game. And when they advance, they should pop their smoke launchers. 

[Ish]

I just wish they had options beyond the Phobos Pattern Land Raider... 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

I just wish they had options beyond the Phobos Pattern Land Raider... 

But isn't there's with venerable and BS 2+?

4 Las with bs 2+ makes it one of the best AA units in the game...well, other than flamers <rolls eyes>

[Ish]

I just prefer having options.

(And yeah, the flamethrowers versus aircraft thing is just silly.)

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ish said:

I just prefer having options.

(And yeah, the flamethrowers versus aircraft thing is just silly.)

In fairness, never seen any documentation regarding people shooting flame throwers at aircraft...maybe it works really well in real life.

And CSM run into the same issue on the lack of options. We've got psykers, so a tad more options there, but only just. For CSM, the big fail is that our terminators used to be in squads of three minimum and now come in squads of 5, so no characters in the LR with the terminators...Though CSM do have access to the FW LR variants. 

Still, I'm envious of your venerable land raiders...

[Ish]

A flamethrower is basically a wesponized water-pump. Spraying some sort of liquid fuel at high pressure and igniting it... Even the largest of them are really short-ranged.

For example, the M132 Armored Flamethrower, a.k.a. “The Zippo,” was a modified M113 APC, that traded its passenger compartment for a buncha fuel tanks and an M10-8 flame gun... Which was basically a firehose that shot literal fire. Maximum effective range on it was still only about 200-ish meters. (Imagine a Space Marine Rhino with a Hellhound turret.)

Man-portable flamethrowers, like the M1, M1A1, and M2 that the U.S. used from WWII through to Vietnam, all had an effective range of 20-ish meters. 

Even when flying a close ground support mission, aircraft all operate at much higher altitudes than that.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Ish said:

A flamethrower is basically a wesponized water-pump. Spraying some sort of liquid fuel at high pressure and igniting it... Even the largest of them are really short-ranged.

For example, the M132 Armored Flamethrower, a.k.a. “The Zippo,” was a modified M113 APC, that traded its passenger compartment for a buncha fuel tanks and an M10-8 flame gun... Which was basically a firehose that shot literal fire. Maximum effective range on it was still only about 200-ish meters. (Imagine a Space Marine Rhino with a Hellhound turret.)

Man-portable flamethrowers, like the M1, M1A1, and M2 that the U.S. used from WWII through to Vietnam, all had an effective range of 20-ish meters. 

Even when flying a close ground support mission, aircraft all operate at much higher altitudes than that.

We could probably think up some rather ridiculous context where the flame thrower would be able to shoot at a plane or jet. But would it do any damage if it were somehow able to hit?

I will note that even if the range of the flamethrower wasn't in question, I don't think they could be realistically aimed at a target moving as fast as a plane. Not as iffy as plane being hit by a catapult, but in that realm of difficulty. Honestly, I feel flamer weapons in 40k shouldn't auto-hit, and if anything, they should risk hitting friendlies.

[Ish]

I think the the tear drop template should have been retained.

[VonVilkee]

I get that people laugh about auto hitting flyers with flamers but seriously who has managed to do any real damage with them? I'm never in range of infantry let alone a vehicle that moves that fast...

 

Most if not all alternative deployment forces you out of range and if you manage the shot you prolly advanced and gave up the rest of the unit shooting... hmmmm mental exercise time. 

5 marines flamer and combi flamer...

2d6 shots 7 is a good middle chunk, 5s to wound call it 2 most vehicles save 4 or better so a wound gets through...

Or

9 bolt shots at 12 ish inches 4.5 hits call it 5 (ones reroll) 1 wound coin flip save.

Or take a special no combi sarge

8 bolt shots and 2 plasma! 4 bonus and 1 plasma hit, plasma 3 up and rather low save bolter could get lucky call this one wound too...

Plasma unit is as good of not better and has way more versatility yeah flamer auto hit but really? Getting the shot almost deserves it...

[WestRider]

44 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

I get that people laugh about auto hitting flyers with flamers but seriously who has managed to do any real damage with them? I'm never in range of infantry let alone a vehicle that moves that fast...

 

Most if not all alternative deployment forces you out of range and if you manage the shot you prolly advanced and gave up the rest of the unit shooting... hmmmm mental exercise time. 

5 marines flamer and combi flamer...

2d6 shots 7 is a good middle chunk, 5s to wound call it 2 most vehicles save 4 or better so a wound gets through...

Or

9 bolt shots at 12 ish inches 4.5 hits call it 5 (ones reroll) 1 wound coin flip save.

Or take a special no combi sarge

8 bolt shots and 2 plasma! 4 bonus and 1 plasma hit, plasma 3 up and rather low save bolter could get lucky call this one wound too...

Plasma unit is as good of not better and has way more versatility yeah flamer auto hit but really? Getting the shot almost deserves it...

Death Guard Noxious Blightbringers are the ones I've seen pull it off. Being Characters, they can often get overlooked and find their way into range for something like that, and their Plague Sprayer/Spewer/Thrower/whatever is pretty nasty. Helldrakes seem like a good way to go about it as well, but I haven't actually seen that happen.

[VonVilkee]

22 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Death Guard Noxious Blightbringers are the ones I've seen pull it off. Being Characters, they can often get overlooked and find their way into range for something like that, and their Plague Sprayer/Spewer/Thrower/whatever is pretty nasty. Helldrakes seem like a good way to go about it as well, but I haven't actually seen that happen.

Helldrakes fly so that is pretty cool. One fringe character leaves me thinking they made the right choice just to ignore it. <shrugs>

[Nathanvoodoo]

Noxious blightbringer? 

59 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Death Guard Noxious Blightbringers are the ones I've seen pull it off. Being Characters, they can often get overlooked and find their way into range for something like that, and their Plague Sprayer/Spewer/Thrower/whatever is pretty nasty. Helldrakes seem like a good way to go about it as well, but I haven't actually seen that happen.

You mean Foetid Bloatdrone?

 

I don’t miss templates at all.

 

40k has basically no basis in reality so... sure a cyber fantasy universe flame thrower gun can shoot a flying airplane as far as I’m concerned. Just like a guy can single handedly wield a giant hydraulicly assisted sledgehammer in one hand while holding a shield nearly as big as himself in the other. 

[WestRider]

13 minutes ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

Noxious blightbringer? 

You mean Foetid Bloatdrone?

 

I don’t miss templates at all.

 

40k has basically no basis in reality so... sure a cyber fantasy universe flame thrower gun can shoot a flying airplane as far as I’m concerned. Just like a guy can single handedly wield a giant hydraulicly assisted sledgehammer in one hand while holding a shield nearly as big as himself in the other. 

Foul Blightspawn was actually the one I was thinking of. The names for the Units dedicated to each Chaos god are heavily themed enough that I get them mixed up a lot. Bloat Drones probably have a good chance of pulling it off as well, and woe betide any Flyer that ends up close to a Plagueburst Crawler.

[Ish]

Death Guard got hit hard by GW's "copyright all the things!" naming practices. Not quite as bad as AoS's Khorne units (since the Death Guard names are made out of real words), but still to a degree that makes the Space Wolves' Wolffrost Frost Wolf and the Stormcast's Stormthunder Lightning Storm look almost sane by comparison. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Ish said:

I think the the tear drop template should have been retained.

 

17 hours ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

I don’t miss templates at all.

 

Agree with both of you. I think flamer teardrop templates should have been retained, but I don't miss them or any of the other templates.