a few rules Q's from my game vs. MexicanNinja

[MexicanNinja]

...Basically, as far as I can tell, the cauldron is treated just like a cav character joining an infantry unit except in areas where it specifically says it is not (positioning for example).

I have to disagree becuase the unit type is chariot.  The Cauldron of Blood is not a cavalry model.  She's a character mounted on a chariot.

[Romes]

I hear you (and you very well might be right if you look at the incomplete ranks as a RAW) but I am wondering still because if a Cav character was in a unit of infantry and was at the other end of a unit he would not be eligible for combat even if it was just him and one character infantry model even though his back of the model could be considered in the second rank.

 

Example: C being the character models and E being the Enemy in the flank.

 

.....E

C...E

CCE

 

Now I am not say I am right but the CoB is a unique situation and can be seen differently by the rules as is. We Really need a Dark Elf FAQ for this kind of thing.

 

As a side note if the CoB was considered in cobat it would totally be in the DE favor 90% of the time.

 

To the best of my understanding the cavalry character would be able to attack "virtually" across the gap here, as per the rules for incomplete ranks. Its possible I'm wrong here, but I don't think so?

 

Also, please see Master's FAQ 10.2 for more on this

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_C3txZLBDaCSUU3QTd2SE1SSTJEa016ODBFX2FvVXZnZDgw/view

[Romes]

I have to disagree becuase the unit type is chariot.  The Cauldron of Blood is not a cavalry model.  She's a character mounted on a chariot.

The unit type doesn't matter, cav was just an example because it is common for cav characters to join infantry units.

 

Characters in units are treated identically whether they are cavalry, monstrous cavalry, monstrous infantry, monstrous  beast, or in this case, chariot. They are either the same unit type as the unit they join, or are not. The difference is that be default, a chariot can't join a unit.

 

Note that being the same unit type is the EXCLUSIVE requirement for look out sir bonus, whereas the base size is the EXCLUSIVE requirement for movement within a unit.

 

Thus a goblin can join a unit of orcs and never move except to either edge event though they're both infantry and a character on a horse can join a unit of warhounds and move freely because of base size but never gets look out sir.

 

The cauldron rules simply allow the chariot to join a unit.

 

Other than than it's unit type, it's just a character on a 60 by 100 which can legally join a unit. This is why you can't shoot a cauldron with BS skill separately and why the cauldrons MR value passes to the unit.

 

 

 

*Edit: I probably shouldn't used cav character in infantry as an example because you're talking about a cav unit, which could have been confusing, my bad on the example.

[MexicanNinja]

I'm not going to lie here, all these diagrams and letters are hurting my head and are confusing as [big bad swear word].

 

NtK, I meant to look this up on Wednesday but forgot. I'm going to read some rules and write a better response to this, later this evening.

 

In the meantime, here's the situation without diagram:

 

1) NtK has a unit of 9 CoK's (general and bsb in front rank, and supreme sorceress in back rank)

 

2) NtK is only in contact with my unit champion from my CoK unit (only front rank left at this point)

 

3) I was going to make way with Malekith to second rank; however he pointed out I didn't have a model to replace him with.  I said you are 100% correct, malekith get your douche ass back in the corner.

 

4) I know that you fill the gaps with incomplete ranks but couldn't remember the exact wording (I only remember the diagram in the MRB which shows models for the unit with incomplete ranks filling in the gaps).  It doesn't show models from the attacking unit filling in the gaps.

 

5) Due to the cauldron being a chariot and with the rules stating that it must always remain in the center of the unit, it would have been impossible for the cauldron to fill in the gap without:

     a. replace the unit champion who was in contact with NtK's general and bsb

     b. make an illegal move by not being in the center of the unit

 

6) We decided to just kill the champion and figure it out after the game (something which I need to reference tonight)

 

7) NtK won combat by 3, not 4, by doing a single wound to my unit champion, flank, and a charge.  We both had a BSB and unit standard so those were both nullified.

 

8) I made my break test.

 

9) I reformed

 

10) I then began to issue challenges with the cauldron and pound knights with malekith

 

There you go.

[MexicanNinja]

The unit type doesn't matter, cav was just an example because it is common for cav characters to join infantry units.

 

Characters in units are treated identically whether they are cavalry, monstrous cavalry, monstrous infantry, monstrous  beast, or in this case, chariot. They are either the same unit type as the unit they join, or are not. The difference is that be default, a chariot can't join a unit.

 

Note that being the same unit type is the EXCLUSIVE requirement for look out sir bonus, whereas the base size is the EXCLUSIVE requirement for movement within a unit.

 

Thus a goblin can join a unit of orcs and never move except to either edge event though they're both infantry and a character on a horse can join a unit of warhounds and move freely because of base size but never gets look out sir.

 

The cauldron rules simply allow the chariot to join a unit.

 

Other than than it's unit type, it's just a character on a 60 by 100 which can legally join a unit. This is why you can't shoot a cauldron with BS skill separately and why the cauldrons MR value passes to the unit.

 

 

 

*Edit: I probably shouldn't used cav character in infantry as an example because you're talking about a cav unit, which could have been confusing, my bad on the example.

Yeah, I was just disagreeing about the chariot part not all the stuff you wrote above your *edit:

 

 

You also specifically stated that a cavalry character could make a virtual attack.  Again, that doesn't apply to the Death Hag on the Cauldron, in this case, because her unit type is chariot.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

To the best of my understanding the cavalry character would be able to attack "virtually" across the gap here, as per the rules for incomplete ranks. Its possible I'm wrong here, but I don't think so?

 

Also, please see Master's FAQ 10.2 for more on this

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_C3txZLBDaCSUU3QTd2SE1SSTJEa016ODBFX2FvVXZnZDgw/view

Really? When I get off work I will read that FAQ. I honestly didn't think that would happen but I also am not the rules expert either. I mostly rely on reading the rules over and over.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I'm not going to lie here, all these diagrams and letters are hurting my head and are confusing as [big bad swear word].

 

NtK, I meant to look this up on Wednesday but forgot. I'm going to read some rules and write a better response to this, later this evening.

 

In the meantime, here's the situation without diagram:

 

1) NtK has a unit of 9 CoK's (general and bsb in front rank, and supreme sorceress in back rank)

 

2) NtK is only in contact with my unit champion from my CoK unit (only front rank left at this point)

 

3) I was going to make way with Malekith to second rank; however he pointed out I didn't have a model to replace him with.  I said you are 100% correct, malekith get your douche ass back in the corner.

 

4) I know that you fill the gaps with incomplete ranks but couldn't remember the exact wording (I only remember the diagram in the MRB which shows models for the unit with incomplete ranks filling in the gaps).  It doesn't show models from the attacking unit filling in the gaps.

 

5) Due to the cauldron being a chariot and with the rules stating that it must always remain in the center of the unit, it would have been impossible for the cauldron to fill in the gap without:

     a. replace the unit champion who was in contact with NtK's general and bsb

     b. make an illegal move by not being in the center of the unit

 

6) We decided to just kill the champion and figure it out after the game (something which I need to reference tonight)

 

7) NtK won combat by 3, not 4, by doing a single wound to my unit champion, flank, and a charge.  We both had a BSB and unit standard so those were both nullified.

 

8) I made my break test.

 

9) I reformed

 

10) I then began to issue challenges with the cauldron and pound knights with malekith

 

There you go.

I pretty much agree and believe you have everything right but one thing. Yesterday I read on page 100 that a Character can replace a Rank and File model including the Command Group. Doesn't that include the unit champion?

[Romes]

I'm not going to lie here, all these diagrams and letters are hurting my head and are confusing as [big bad swear word].

 

NtK, I meant to look this up on Wednesday but forgot. I'm going to read some rules and write a better response to this, later this evening.

 

In the meantime, here's the situation without diagram:

 

1) NtK has a unit of 9 CoK's (general and bsb in front rank, and supreme sorceress in back rank)

 

2) NtK is only in contact with my unit champion from my CoK unit (only front rank left at this point)

 

3) I was going to make way with Malekith to second rank; however he pointed out I didn't have a model to replace him with.  I said you are 100% correct, malekith get your douche ass back in the corner.

 

4) I know that you fill the gaps with incomplete ranks but couldn't remember the exact wording (I only remember the diagram in the MRB which shows models for the unit with incomplete ranks filling in the gaps).  It doesn't show models from the attacking unit filling in the gaps.

 

5) Due to the cauldron being a chariot and with the rules stating that it must always remain in the center of the unit, it would have been impossible for the cauldron to fill in the gap without:

     a. replace the unit champion who was in contact with NtK's general and bsb

     b. make an illegal move by not being in the center of the unit

 

6) We decided to just kill the champion and figure it out after the game (something which I need to reference tonight)

 

7) NtK won combat by 3, not 4, by doing a single wound to my unit champion, flank, and a charge.  We both had a BSB and unit standard so those were both nullified.

 

8) I made my break test.

 

9) I reformed

 

10) I then began to issue challenges with the cauldron and pound knights with malekith

 

There you go.

 

That's much clearer in text! whew!

 

1. You can make way with Malekith because. as stated in the thread previously, you can make way through command models.

 

2.  The cauldron gets to fight and is exposed to attack. Note the wording in the FAQ entry I listed above. It's actually written to ensure that the COK get to attack the cauldron rather than the other way around, but what happens is that they fight "across the gap".

 

*edit, 10.2 only indirectly covers it because it's talking about a rear charge. But it's the concept of fighting across the gap what I was getting at. You don't actually have to be in base to base to fight when units can't "go flush".

[MexicanNinja]

That's much clearer in text! whew!

 

1. You can make way with Malekith because. as stated in the thread previously, you can make way through command models.

 

2.  The cauldron gets to fight and is exposed to attack. Note the wording in the FAQ entry I listed above. It's actually written to ensure that the COK get to attack the cauldron rather than the other way around, but what happens is that they fight "across the gap".

 

*edit, 10.2 only indirectly covers it because it's talking about a rear charge. But it's the concept of fighting across the gap what I was getting at. You don't actually have to be in base to base to fight when units can't "go flush".

Gotch on the 10.2 now.

 

I didn't want to replace malekith with the unit champion because he had two charactes with S6 and S7 wielding magic weapons which would have negated the 2++.

 

There is something else we forgot to do.  After the ASF stuff he should have shifted down and let his cold ones attack.  Oh well, it was a huge cluster and we just made a decision and decided to look it up afterwards.  Like I said, I wish my death hag could have killed some knights.  I may have ended up winning the combat.

 

At any rate. We both know how it works now and I believe this issue is settled.

[Romes]

Glad to hear it! I'm curious, are you keeping the no armor save weapon know that you know it doesn't interact with poison?

 

I kind of like it anyways.. it's a good idea.

[MexicanNinja]

Yes, I will be keeping the Obsidian Blade.  I mean, why not?  She still get's to re-roll wounds and no armour saves is still much more threatening over S4 wounds with poison.  Plus she gets magic attacks so she can charge out of the unit into something if need be.

[MexicanNinja]

I pretty much agree and believe you have everything right but one thing. Yesterday I read on page 100 that a Character can replace a Rank and File model including the Command Group. Doesn't that include the unit champion?

What don't I have right?  I said I didn't want to replace the unit champ with malekith.  His characters had magic weapons and that takes away the 2++ malekith has.

[thatdave]

Good on ya both!

 

I will say that reforming changes the situation vs. a making way scenario, obviously. I will have to reread some posts and make sure I didn't misinterpret something that led me to believe we were discussing something we weren't.

 

Hypothetically, let's say you failed your leadership test to reform. That would have forced the Cauldron into BtB with the flanking unit, correct? I know the CoB rules state that it must be placed in the center of the first rank, but if there are only two models it would occupying as much of, and as close to, the middle as possible.

[MexicanNinja]

Good on ya both!

 

I will say that reforming changes the situation vs. a making way scenario, obviously. I will have to reread some posts and make sure I didn't misinterpret something that led me to believe we were discussing something we weren't.

 

Hypothetically, let's say you failed your leadership test to reform. That would have forced the Cauldron into BtB with the flanking unit, correct? I know the CoB rules state that it must be placed in the center of the first rank, but if there are only two models it would occupying as much of, and as close to, the middle as possible.

No, my musician would have been in base contact with the unit.  I had my command group, one more CoK, and malekith in the unit (2 on the side of the flank charge, and 3 knights including malektih on the right of the cauldron).

 

However, if I had failed my LD test, I would have been stuck like that until I was able to make a reform to make the legal move to put the cauldron back in the middle of the unit.  That is the rare circumstance.

 

The cauldron was in the middle, based on the number of models I had in the front rank.

[McNathanson]

Yep it seems like we have the rules cleared up for next time.  

I want to add that at no time did I feel like MN was trying to gain an edge through rules fuddling, we were just both doing our best to get it right!  In fact, I commented to my brother Micah (also a rules geek) that MN was good at the game and competitive but doesn't try to win through shenanigans, and was quick to just agree on something and move on playing when we didn't know exactly what to do.  I love that, it keeps the game flowing, and we can figure it out later, instead of poring over books while we could be rolling dice and smashing face!!

Also interesting to me that the text diagrams are so confusing!  Good to know... I'll have to resurrect my old rules Q&A diagrams from past OFCC rules packets :)



 

[MexicanNinja]

Yep it seems like we have the rules cleared up for next time.  

 

I want to add that at no time did I feel like MN was trying to gain an edge through rules fuddling, we were just both doing our best to get it right!  In fact, I commented to my brother Micah (also a rules geek) that MN was good at the game and competitive but doesn't try to win through shenanigans, and was quick to just agree on something and move on playing when we didn't know exactly what to do.  I love that, it keeps the game flowing, and we can figure it out later, instead of poring over books while we could be rolling dice and smashing face!!

 

Also interesting to me that the text diagrams are so confusing!  Good to know... I'll have to resurrect my old rules Q&A diagrams from past OFCC rules packets :)

 

 

 

 

The diagram was confusing to me because it was showing a rear and front charge.  The flank charge should have shown the following:

 

  G

KBUKCCKKM

KK     CC

SU

KK

 

K=Cold One Knight

U=Unit Champion

G=General

B=BSB

S=Supreme Sorceress

C=Cauldron of Blood

M=Malekith

 

To make this even more confusing was the ASF.  If only one of us had had ASF going on, this whole thing wouldn't have been nearly as complicated as it seemed at the time.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

@NtK, I don't think any of us thought MN was trying to gain an advantage, it was just a unique situation.

 

@MN, sorry thought you were going with my previous assumption that the Champion couldn't be replaced by Make Way. But this thread did educate me more than I thought and glad it happened.

 

@Romes, Thanks for posting the FAQ and I will take a look now that I have the time.

[MexicanNinja]

@NtK, I don't think any of us thought MN was trying to gain an advantage, it was just a unique situation.

 

@MN, sorry thought you were going with my previous assumption that the Champion couldn't be replaced by Make Way. But this thread did educate me more than I thought and glad it happened...

 

Well, we both decided we had to try to cheat at least once.  As a Dark Elf you have to.  It just didn't work out for either of us during each of our attempt.

 

No worries man, and glad this helped you.

 

As a side note, my unit MVP goes to my warlocks.  They got charged turn 1 by a master on dark peg, lost by 4, and held.  They continued to hold him in place (they died to a warlock and I managed to put 2 wounds on his master) until the top of turn 5.  That was an epic showing.

 

If I had to give one of his units an MVP award, it would definately go to his unit of Dark Shards.  Turn 1 they take aim at some dark riders, and kill 3.  No big deal, until I fail my LD test, flee through another unit of dark riders (who in turn panics off the table), and flee through a building (and take 2 more casualties from dangerous terrain).  That wasn't all, the dark shards charge a unit of 10 dark riders on top of turn 4.  He wins combat but I stick.  Then on top of turn 5 he kills a single dark rider, I don't do a damn thing back, I break, and they run me down.  I will say though, this unit made like 10+ parry saves (it was friggin insane).

[MexicanNinja]

...I think there was one other question we had but I can't remember it... maybe later :)

I remember what it was NtK.  It was when my chartiot slammed into the CoK combat.  Here's the scenario for the this shenanigan:

 

1) Chariot charges the front of the knights and a depleted unit of dark riders charge the flank of his knights (I wanted the +2 for combat res)

 

2) Chariot does 5 impact hits

 

3) Impact hits are distributed as shooting

 

4) At this time his unit consists of the following:

     a. Unit Standard

     b. BSB who's in a challenge with my BSB

     c. General

 

5) Do we roll to randomize the impact hits (since they are distributed as shooting) or do they all go onto his general?  His general was the only model in base contact with the chariot

 

6) If we roll to randomize, do we leave his BSB out of the distribution of impact hits because he's in a challlenge, or can he be killed by the impact hits?

 

 

This was the other situation we were trying to figure out but our game was called short because the store had closed 10 minutes ago.

 

As a side note, these are the type of things that  came up in every game I have played with VonRuger (we work together and before he deployed we would play at least 4 times a month).  Every game had some stupid crap come up that would never happen against anyone else we would play.  It was ridiculous.  So, I told NtK that he has replaced VonRuger for these silly shenanigans which will most likely not happen outside of our games.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I remember what it was NtK.  It was when my chartiot slammed into the CoK combat.  Here's the scenario for the this shenanigan:

 

1) Chariot charges the front of the knights and a depleted unit of dark riders charge the flank of his knights (I wanted the +2 for combat res)

 

2) Chariot does 5 impact hits

 

3) Impact hits are distributed as shooting

 

4) At this time his unit consists of the following:

     a. Unit Standard

     b. BSB who's in a challenge with my BSB

     c. General

 

5) Do we roll to randomize the impact hits (since they are distributed as shooting) or do they all go onto his general?  His general was the only model in base contact with the chariot

 

6) If we roll to randomize, do we leave his BSB out of the distribution of impact hits because he's in a challlenge, or can he be killed by the impact hits?

 

 

This was the other situation we were trying to figure out but our game was called short because the store had closed 10 minutes ago.

 

As a side note, these are the type of things that  came up in every game I have played with VonRuger (we work together and before he deployed we would play at least 4 times a month).  Every game had some stupid crap come up that would never happen against anyone else we would play.  It was ridiculous.  So, I told NtK that he has replaced VonRuger for these silly shenanigans which will most likely not happen outside of our games.

Well since it is randomized all the members should be eligible. Also being in a challenge prevents other models from attacking not wounds from a shooting or magic. Just like if a vortex went over them they would still be hit by it.

 

Just my take but from the wording this seems to be correct.

[ClassicFlava]

MN you get to assign the wounds since there are less than 5 models and it is distributed as shooting. I believe it still has to be distributed as evenly as possible but you get to decide. I know this because it came up at one of my OFCC games and we looked up the rule

[Lion of Flanders]

As regards the original question one about attacking the cauldron, it seems to me that the US Masters FAQ address this question (see 6.11)., I.e that models would be able to attack "across the gap".

[MexicanNinja]

As regards the original question one about attacking the cauldron, it seems to me that the US Masters FAQ address this question (see 6.11)., I.e that models would be able to attack "across the gap".

Yes, it is also ruled that way in the MRB.  I found the answer, thanks for the find though LoF.  By the way, how are your dark elves doing?  Are you planning on doing anything with the escalation or the rampage this year?

[MexicanNinja]

MN you get to assign the wounds since there are less than 5 models and it is distributed as shooting. I believe it still has to be distributed as evenly as possible but you get to decide. I know this because it came up at one of my OFCC games and we looked up the rule

Perfect, that's what we thought; however, we didn't know how to address this with his bsb who was in a challenge.

[McNathanson]

For fun (and since I'll use the basic blocks again later I'm sure) here's the combat just after the charge (roughly... I'm not 100% sure of his model count or placement beyond the Cauldron, but it was not important since I was only in contact with the unit Champ)