fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 OK, so the one formation in the new Coven supplement that I completely looked over is the Scalpel formation. Basically, it's two units of wracks in venoms that have to be put in reserve and have to deep strike into the game, and get a bonus to First Blood if they get it. But they have one little thing that I didn't really think about. They AUTOMATICALLY come in on turn 1 from reserve. Now, on the surface, that's pretty shoddy, and I was like, PASS. Well, a buddy of mine was touting them and I was arguing against it, but then I realized something. This little formation allows the DE player to always be able to alpha strike. :shock: Think about it. In 7th, there's no limit to how many units can be in reserve, but there's still the issue of, if you end the game turn with nothing on the board, you lose. Well, this unit auto shows up on turn 1, so even if one reserves their whole army, these guys WILL show up on turn 1 and save you from auto-losing. So: Either the DE player gets turn 1 and then just deploys for alpha strike city, or else if the DE player goes second, they reserve everything wait to show up turn 2 to do damage. Heck, one could leverage this with the realspace raiders and go all-in on aircraft and just CHOOSE to go second in order to bring all the planes in. Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting tactical nugget in order to assure the DE player of a turn of damage dealing before getting hit on the chin. Something like this: Realspace Raiders Detachment Haemon: 70 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 60 Blaster Raider: Dark Lance 5 Mandrakes: 60 5 Mandrakes: 60 5 Mandrakes: 60 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Scalpel Squadron 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 2000 If I go first, there's not a lot that can hide from me and I'll be putting a TON of damage out. If I go second, I can leave everything in reserve and just show up turn 2 in masse. I really like the tactically flexibility here, and leaves one less exposed. In fact, I might suggest that going second is possibly the best to avoid getting hit with Seizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Mmm. A couple of problems I still see: -You've got no protection against getting Seized on or Intercepted. Very few lists will have enough Interceptor to straight-out table you if you reserve stuff, but it still puts a major kink in things. -You have no way to manipulate reserves at all. I would, at the very least, try to get an Archon in there for the +1. If you regularly reserve almost your entire army, relying on 3+s seems very, very risky. -I don't think I can call 14 Lances + 16 Haywire "light" anti-tank, but it will have the usual DE struggle in that regard. Lances just aren't very good at killing AV12 vehicles like Drop Pods and Wave Serpents. -Mishapping with your Scalpel Squadron, while not exactly likely, will lose you the game. Hell, against Interceptor weapons mishapping with one of them will lose you the game. -What are the Mandrakes bringing to the list? They can Outflank/Infiltrate, I guess, but does the army really need a weak melee component? -No WWP on the Haemonculus? Seems like that should be a given in this army. I'd stick him with some Medusae so you have a strong anti-MEQ tool, because otherwise you are kinda lacking in that respect. Seems like a decent basis for a gimmick list, though, and against certain kinds of armies it will give them fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Mmm. A couple of problems I still see: -You've got no protection against getting Seized on or Intercepted. Very few lists will have enough Interceptor to straight-out table you if you reserve stuff, but it still puts a major kink in things. Sure, being seized on is going to suck, and interceptor-heavy armies are going to be a problem for sure. There's a 50/50 that I will go first vs a list with lots of interceptor, so I'd choose to go first there if I can. Being seized on? There's no defense against that other than choosing to go first, but then one is putting faith in reserve rolls instead of the seize roll. No list is perfect though, and these are problems for any army that is counting on alpha strike. -You have no way to manipulate reserves at all. I would, at the very least, try to get an Archon in there for the +1. If you regularly reserve almost your entire army, relying on 3+s seems very, very risky. Archon doesn't give a plus one. They have no way to manipulate reserves. -I don't think I can call 14 Lances + 16 Haywire "light" anti-tank, but it will have the usual DE struggle in that regard. Lances just aren't very good at killing AV12 vehicles like Drop Pods and Wave Serpents. This is about as much anti-tank as I can squeeze in. Not sure how else to do it. -Mishapping with your Scalpel Squadron, while not exactly likely, will lose you the game. Hell, against Interceptor weapons mishapping with one of them will lose you the game. Meh, they have tons of range and are small, I don't think this is very likely. -What are the Mandrakes bringing to the list? They can Outflank/Infiltrate, I guess, but does the army really need a weak melee component? They actually are really good at killing infantry with their shooting and are tough to kill without ignores cover. They can also help with keeping the enemy back if needed, they are also gold if you are playing Maelstrom. -No WWP on the Haemonculus? Seems like that should be a given in this army. I'd stick him with some Medusae so you have a strong anti-MEQ tool, because otherwise you are kinda lacking in that respect. I could see switching up the list and going with a WWP on the haemon with some medusae. Could be sexy. That's a pretty solid play, honestly. I could also switch up a ravager to have disintegrators as well. That's anti MEq/TEq in spades. Seems like a decent basis for a gimmick list, though, and against certain kinds of armies it will give them fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 You could take an aegis with Comm Relay if you want reserve manip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Is it possible to get JUST a Comm Relay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Umm. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Bastion with Comm Relay so you can hide one venom in the case of interceptor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Who would be using it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Sure, being seized on is going to suck, and interceptor-heavy armies are going to be a problem for sure. There's a 50/50 that I will go first vs a list with lots of interceptor, so I'd choose to go first there if I can. Being seized on? There's no defense against that other than choosing to go first, but then one is putting faith in reserve rolls instead of the seize roll. No list is perfect though, and these are problems for any army that is counting on alpha strike. Well, there are a few ways (Coteaz, the new IA13 Legacy, etc) but they are fairly rare, yeah. However, unlike a lot of armies, if you deploy on the table and the enemy Seizes, that can potentially be game over for you right there- DE are very fragile. Archon doesn't give a plus one. They have no way to manipulate reserves. Derp. I meant Autarch, not Archon. They actually are really good at killing infantry with their shooting and are tough to kill without ignores cover. They can also help with keeping the enemy back if needed, they are also gold if you are playing Maelstrom. Eh. Five guys is ten shots, seven hits, call it three wounds against Orks or four against Guardsmen. That's not exactly terrifying for them. And with as many highly-mobile vehicles as you have, I don't think they're needed for Maelstrom at all. It's not that they are bad per se, but in a list that is otherwise nothing but vehicles they seem very out of place. I could see switching up the list and going with a WWP on the haemon with some medusae. Could be sexy. That's a pretty solid play, honestly. I could also switch up a ravager to have disintegrators as well. That's anti MEq/TEq in spades. If you were going for Disintegrators, I might try on a Razorwing instead. Two Dissies, a Splinter Cannon, and four Missiles is no joke for a loadout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilence Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I like it. don't have the books so can't speak to the units, but tacticly being able to dictate opening engagements with an alpha army would be gold. With 15 (not counting your auto t1 guys) reserved units a 3+ should statistically bring something useful on t2. Interceptor would always be an issue, but I think you could adapt. Do the mandrakes have DS to get them up the board in cover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Well, there are a few ways (Coteaz, the new IA13 Legacy, etc) but they are fairly rare, yeah. However, unlike a lot of armies, if you deploy on the table and the enemy Seizes, that can potentially be game over for you right there- DE are very fragile. Well, most places limit one to two sources, so I can't really bring anything other than the main detachment and the scalpel squadron. Derp. I meant Autarch, not Archon. Same as above, can't really ally in anything without going to 3 sources. If we're allowing multiple sources, then, SURE! Eh. Five guys is ten shots, seven hits, call it three wounds against Orks or four against Guardsmen. That's not exactly terrifying for them. And with as many highly-mobile vehicles as you have, I don't think they're needed for Maelstrom at all. It's not that they are bad per se, but in a list that is otherwise nothing but vehicles they seem very out of place. Fair enough, I'm not married to them, originally they were a unit of grotesques with the haemon with a WWP. I could see going that way again, honestly, 'cause then the third warrior unit can go into a venom, which I like better. Or disappear. I'm not 100% set on this list. Mostly I want to focus on things that will be able to shoot turn 1. If you were going for Disintegrators, I might try on a Razorwing instead. Two Dissies, a Splinter Cannon, and four Missiles is no joke for a loadout. Maybe? I think I want to keep the dark lances on them in order to kill flyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Do the mandrakes have DS to get them up the board in cover? No, they have infiltrate or outflank. I'm looking at them as something to axe now, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think this list is very fun and engaging and just as devious as their fluff deserves. Could you ally in a Autarch and maybe just some guardian jetbikes to zip around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Realspace Raiders Detachment Succubus: 150 Armour of Misery, Archite Glaive, Haywire Grenade, Webway Portal Court of the Archon: 215 4 Medusae, 7 Ur-Ghul, 1 Lhamean 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Scalpel Squadron 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 2000 The Lhamean is just there 'cause I had 10 pts to spend. Ur-ghul are just nuts in melee against vehicles, kicking out 4 S5 attacks each. This is also a good anti-infantry unit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think this list is very fun and engaging and just as devious as their fluff deserves. Could you ally in a Autarch and maybe just some guardian jetbikes to zip around. Again, the real limitation is number of sources. If I'm not limited by sources, then I'd TOTALLY get an autarch and just a unit of rangers as an allied detachment. So, assuming 3 sources are allowed, I'd do THIS: Haemon: 105 WWP 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Kabalite Trueborn: 115 4 Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Scalpel Squadron 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon Allied Detachment: Autarch: 80 Fusion Gun 5 Rangers: 60 1995 I would almost ALWAYS choose to go second because everything's coming in on a 2+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 For the points of the maddrakes could you add another wrack and venom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrizic Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you don't have at least nine venoms you're wrong 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilence Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 With infiltrate the mandrakes could work very well with the beta strike as bait/feint. Null deploy with all the vehicles, bait-filtrate™ The mandrakes so they are easy pickings for the enemy (thinking assault or short ranged shooting elements here) on a flank or objective, then hit the over extended bit with mass reserves. Just another layer of control. /shrug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you don't have at least nine venoms you're wrong I could certainly go that way as well, but I feel like DE really need to go all-in on anti-vehicle just considering the power builds all feature a lot of vehicles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 With infiltrate the mandrakes could work very well with the beta strike as bait/feint. Null deploy with all the vehicles, bait-filtrate™ The mandrakes so they are easy pickings for the enemy (thinking assault or short ranged shooting elements here) on a flank or objective, then hit the over extended bit with mass reserves. Just another layer of control. /shrug Yup, that's about it, but that's no guarantee of anything. Mostly, I was thinking, if I'm going first, I deploy my stuff, my opponent deploys to hide, then I can infiltrate to get at choice morsels of weak enemy units for first blood. Combine them with the deepstriking venom unit, and I can really go for First Blood and try for that VP bonus. Anyway, not the greatest tactic in the world, but it has merit IMO. It's hard to find more value at 180 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 People worry bout reserves too much. :) Go big or go home. Reserves are super cool. Venoms are cool but Im not sure bout "doing it wrong without NINE." lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrizic Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I could certainly go that way as well, but I feel like DE really need to go all-in on anti-vehicle just considering the power builds all feature a lot of vehicles. nothing 8 venoms full of wyches with haywire grenades couldn't handle. Oh wait....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Too soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 OK, if you can go with 3 sources, how 'bout this? Covenite Coterie Detachment: 930 Haemonculus: 105 Webway Portal Haemonculus: 105 Webway Portal Haemonculus: 105 Webway Portal Haemonculus: 105 Webway Portal 5 Grotesques: 195 + 60 Abomination: Scissorhands Raider: Enhanced Aethersails 5 Grotesques: 195 + 60 Abomination: Scissorhands Raider: Enhanced Aethersails Scalpel Squadron: 260 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannons 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannons Combined Arms Detachment (Eldar): 790 Autarch: 80 Fusion Gun Spiritseer: 70 5 Wraithguard: 160 5 Wraithblades: 160 5 Wraithblades: 160 5 Wraithblades: 160 1980 Null deploy, then bring in all those sexy sexy wraithblades and the grotesques show up in the raiders. That's a beta strike from hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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