Vassal Game Tonight

[fluger]

Going to try out this:
 

 

 

Realspace Raiders Detachment

Haemon: 80
Scissorhands

5 Warriors: 55 + 65
Blaster
Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

5 Warriors: 55 + 65
Blaster
Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

4 Grotesques: 160+70
Abomination: Scissorhands
Raider: Enhanced Aethersails, Shock Prow

6 Reavers: 146
2 Heat Lances
2 Cluster Caltrops

6 Reavers: 146
2 Heat Lances
2 Cluster Caltrops

5 Scourges: 120
4x Haywire Blasters

5 Scourges: 120
4x Haywire Blasters

Razorwing Jetfighter: 140
Dark Lances

Razorwing Jetfighter: 140
Dark Lances

Ravager: 125
3x Dark Lances

Ravager: 125
3x Dark Lances

Ravager: 125
3x Dark Lances

Scalpel Squadron
5 Wracks: 65 + 65
Ossefactor
Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

5 Wracks: 65 + 65
Ossefactor
Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

1997 pts

 

Against the new BA codex.  I'll try and take some pics and let you know how it goes.  

[fluger]

We'll be playing Maelstrom Missions with the Adepticon Maelstrom Chart:  http://adepticon.org/wpfiles/2015/201540Ktocards.pdf

[Lord Hanaur]

well, for what its worth I'd go with at least nine in the Reavers squads.  You can definitely afford to lose a Ravager squad since you have the Scourges already.

[fluger]

We'll see.  

[Lord Hanaur]

You will.  That's true.  Vassal is the perfect forum for trying new ideas.

 

six Reavers just may not be enough.  Plus the third Caltrop makes a real difference when you're trying to punch hulls.

[fluger]

Hmmm, well, It's almost a straight 1 to 1 comparison.

 

2 x 3 Reavers and 1 Caltrop is 126 pts and a Ravager is 125.  

 

I'll play it out as I have it now, but it's definitely something I'd consider.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

How'd it go?

[fluger]

Ha!  Not going very well for me so far!  In turn 3 and I'm just seeing all the errors I've made!

 

Biggest one is that I forgot that in 7th edition, the person who deploys first doesn't have to go first.  So I let my opponent deploly, then declined to deploy, and then he made me go first.  LOL. 

[Lord Hanaur]

wah crap.

[Lord Hanaur]

Yer game is locked.  I cant watch!

[fluger]

I conceded at the end of my turn 4.  I'll go into more detail later, but I misplayed it from deployment on.  Oh well.

[Lord Hanaur]

You'd have done better with a cheering section, I think.  that's one change I would make to the list.  They don't even cost points.  Pretty much an auto include in my mind.

[fluger]

Well, the biggest takeaway is that null deployment DOES. NOT. WORK. in 7th edition.  My opponent won the roll, determined to go first, deployed his army, then I said, "I deploy nothing!", then he said, OK, you go first.  I forgot that in 7th, you can pick to go second after deploying first!  ARGH.  

As well, his warlord ability was -1 to my reserve rolls so everything was coming in on 4s.  

 

In the future, I'm not going to bother trying to deploy off the board as it is just too problematic.  :(  Better to start on the board, take my licks and do some damage.  

 

With that in mind, the scalpel squadron is OUT.  They were a total bust IMO.  Everything else did fine, I just didn't know how to use it very well.

 

My quick thought is to sub in the grotesquirie into the list instead of the scalpel squadron and the regular Grots.  I'm also playing with the idea of a WWP haemon bringing in scourges with heat lances.  

[fluger]

Here's the newest version:

 

Realspace Raiders Detachment

 

Haemon: 80

Scissorhands

 

5 Warriors: 55 + 65

Blaster

Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

 

5 Warriors: 55 + 65

Blaster

Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon

 

6 Reavers: 136

1 Heat Lance

2 Cluster Caltrops

 

6 Reavers: 136

1 Heat Lance

2 Cluster Caltrops

 

6 Reavers: 136

1 Heat Lance

2 Cluster Caltrops

 

6 Reavers: 136

1 Heat Lance

2 Cluster Caltrops

 

5 Scourges: 120

4x Haywire Blasters

 

5 Scourges: 120

4x Haywire Blasters

 

Ravager: 125

3x Dark Lances

 

Ravager: 125

3x Dark Lances

 

Ravager: 125

3x Dark Lances

 

Grotesquerie Formation:

 

Haemon:  80

Scissorhands

 

4 Grotesques: 160+60

Abberration: Scissorhands

Raider: Enhanced Aethersails

 

4 Grotesques: 160+60

Abberration: Scissorhands

Raider: Enhanced Aethersails

[AbusePuppy]

Do keep in mind that LVO, TSHFT, and other tournaments use slightly different rules that don't allow the "I deploy first, you go first" decision. But yes, that rule is rather stupid and removes a major part of the decision-making in the game- in no small part because it lets you make the decision AFTER seeing how the enemy deploys.

 

I was never impressed by Scalpel Squadron, so I think pulling them is a good choice. They just don't do enough damage to consistently get First Blood.

 

I think the problem the list may have is that it doesn't really point you in a strong direction- you've got aggressive units with the Grots/Reavers, shooty stuff with the Venoms/Ravagers, reserve units with the Razorwings... all of those are good units, of course, but they all point you in very different directions. (Also, get some Splinter Cannons on those Razorwings- they're super-handy against FMCs and even regular infantry.)

[fluger]

Yeah, that disjointed feeling was REALLY strong in my game, the new list focuses more on melee elements now.

[Lord Hanaur]

Well, the biggest takeaway is that null deployment DOES. NOT. WORK. in 7th edition. 

Hehehe.  It works.  You just need a montor to take you under his wings and show you.  Anakin, I can show you things the Jedi's don't want you to know.

[Guest]

Well, the biggest takeaway is that null deployment DOES. NOT. WORK.  

It can work, but you really need to design the list around being able to null deploy.

 

Biggest issue with null deployment (or reserves in general) is that you lose turns of shooting and/or assault due to reserves. Each turn a unit isn't on the table is a multiplier on how much more effective they need to be when they arrive. If they don't arrive, it becomes a multiplier for the rest of your army on how effective they need to be.

 

This is why armies that use turn 1 reserves or bypass reserve rolls, are at an advantage with null deployment (or reserves in general). It is also why DS mishaps can be such a critical blow to any army.

[Lord Hanaur]

Not exactly.  Positionl dominance is the ultimate goal of Null Deployment.  Not necessarily what you kill, though that matters, but when and WHERE. 

 

I have extensive...  REALLY extensive...  experience doing this and the only time it's a truly bad thing is when the force you're playing just isn't uber mobile.  Dark Eldar in general dont have that problem.  =)

 

The Scapel Squadrons is good because when you win the choie to eploy first or second, you can choose first, and deploy NOTHING, see where the enemy is and respond perfectly.  If you are to go second, the Scalpel Squadron takes an entire turn away fro mthe enemy shooting.  Now THATS what I call an awesome force field, PLUS you get to react to everything they are trying to do.

 

That's how Scalpel Squadron helps.

[fluger]

That's what I was hoping for, but I trickled in and he was fast enough to go and get my piecemeal forces. 

[fluger]

I'll stop trying to be fancy and stick to what I know:  hordes. 

[Lord Hanaur]

There's a real value to mastering a certain strategy.  If hordes is where your greatest success occurs, then maybe save the experimental Strategies for VASSAL.  That this was a VASSAL game made it a "who cares" situation where you could try stuff. 

 

In any event, as the Russians were fond of proving, Quantity has a quality all its own.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, the tactical advantages of choosing where the battle happens can easily be outweighed by the raw firepower of just having access to all your units at once on the board. You either need a way to reliably bring in most/all of your reserves (like Deathwing/Drop Pod Assault or reserve bonuses), the ability to divide the enemy's firepower (by using terrain, range, or other factors) or the ability to make firepower a non-issue (such as by aiming for just surviving to grab objectives, etc.) However, all of these strategies can have their weaknesses and counters, so none of them are guaranteed even for a good general.

 

I would love to see someone reserve everything and bring just a Scalpel Squadron down and then see it get Intercepted to death. Reserve strategies in general are extremely weak to Interceptor, so seeing people try and pull shenanigans and then just get gunned to pieces by 50+ twin-linked shots is a glorious thing.

[fluger]

The list I was playing against had two quad icarus redoubt thingies.  They killed several of my little vehicles as they came on the board... :( 

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah, the tactical advantages of choosing where the battle happens can easily be outweighed by the raw firepower of just having access to all your units at once on the board.

Famous last words.  =)

 

I don't think it gets outweighed enough times for me not to do it.  I've yet to lose because I didn't take my turn one pot shots at long distance targets that 50% of the games are Night Fighting, and which 50% of the time are before he moves into more effective range; and have never hated that he fails to do ANYTHING to me nor can he pre-empt my use of firepower position for maximum effect (such as, for example, hitting a squadron of Leman Russ battle Tanks from the rear with 12 STR 7 shots that can hit on 2's!!!  Yahoo).

 

I think people just are too impatient to "get to the shooting".

 

I will not in any way, shape, or form claim that you must deploy minimally to win.  I do however assert that the value of doing it is real and that it serves me exceptionally well, more often than it does not.  Since I don't play to lose, you can be assured I'd be the first to abandon the technique if I thought there were some strategic reason to do otherwise in a given match (and sometimes i definitely do not use null deployment).  I don't ALWAYS need to do it if the enemy ranges allow me not to.  Some enemies are just too imposing to line up and allow them to execute their plan without a countermeasure.  Centurion Stars for example are highly effective.  Being able to see them coming is of enormous value.  The same goes for other deathstars.  The faster they are the more you have to think like this.  The slower they are, the less.

 

In any event i only posit it as being one extremely valuable way to learn to play and again, never assert it to be the only way.  Lots of people win doing it otherwise.