fluger Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Then you are wise enough to ignore me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I have a scorpions labeled station on pandora. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 The Brass Scorpion is cheaper, has better than normal Stomp attacks (rather than no Stomp at all), roughly equal guns, a much longer charge range, and AV14 in the front. Being so much cheaper, faster, and tougher than the Lord is a really huge improvement. Yeah, front AV14 is nice, but it also has rear AV10. As a walker it doesn't matter in melee, but it does mean that bolters can glance this guy to death (5++ and sixes to glance would require a freakish number of bolters in the rear arc, but it is still notable). Lord of Skulls may have lower front (13), but it has higher rear (11). Brass Scorpion does have weaker ranged weapons, but they do fill the same roles. I will note that the Lord of Skulls has the Daemon Forge rule, so once per game, the Lord of skulls can reroll all failed rolls to wound or pen in the shooting phase (could technically do it in the assault phase too, but it doesn't affect D weapons). This means that the already rather dangerous looking shooting attacks on the Lord of Skulls can be more dangerous for a turn's shooting phase. As for the stomp, it is notable that the stomp is initiative 1 and doesn't affect other super heavies. So if concerned with low initiative, the stomp doesn't really help that, nor does it do anything if worried about imperial knights. Thunderblitz is nifty as it enables the super heavy to bypass infantry screens in the movement phase, so you can freely charge the things that matter. As for the extra charge range, the Lord of Skulls has fleet, while the Scorpion has the 3d6 charge without fleet. It would greatly depend on your dice regarding which is better. Scorpion has a longer charge potential, to be sure. I agree that the Brass Scorpion looks really cool and is much cheaper (in points only). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'm wondering if most of Ordo isn't old enough to get it...Or maybe old enough to wisely ignore me. That was the first song I ever sang at Karaoke ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 That was the first song I ever sang at Karaoke ;)I think I've done karaoke twice and it was 'here I go again' both times... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Love how derailed this thread is. OP's question (my question) has already been answered, for the record. I think I've done Karaoke once. Big downside to knowing only rather obscure music is the lack of karaoke support for it. I did not know any of the songs in the karaoke machine. I still tried... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, front AV14 is nice, but it also has rear AV10. As a walker it doesn't matter in melee, but it does mean that bolters can glance this guy to death (5++ and sixes to glance would require a freakish number of bolters in the rear arc, but it is still notable). Lord of Skulls may have lower front (13), but it has higher rear (11). Brass Scorpion does have weaker ranged weapons, but they do fill the same roles. I have never seen the rear armor matter on either model- it's technically possible, but with their respective shapes and the way they tend to engage on the battlefield, I don't think it would come up much. The superior front AV is much more relevant, since it reduces the change of Meltabombs, Power Fists, Smash attacks, etc, will be able to hurt you. I would call the ranged weapons roughly on par overall, at least without upgrades. The Gattling Cannon is slightly better than the Scorpion Cannon (S8 rather than S6, twelve shots rather than ten), and the pair Hellmaw Cannons (S6 AP3 template) are once again obviously going to be worse than the LoS's Gorestorm Cannon (S8 AP3 hellstorm), but the Soulburner Cannon (S10 AP2 large blast ignores cover) goes a long ways towards mitigating those inferiorities. The Scorpion's larger number of guns also makes it much more capable of firing its weapons as a prelude to assaulting, something the Lord of Skulls can often struggle with (as it can easily put itself out of charge range.) As for the stomp, it is notable that the stomp is initiative 1 and doesn't affect other super heavies. So if concerned with low initiative, the stomp doesn't really help that, nor does it do anything if worried about imperial knights. Thunderblitz is nifty as it enables the super heavy to bypass infantry screens in the movement phase, so you can freely charge the things that matter. Stomp is far, far better than Thunderblitz, not to even bring into consideration the Scorpion's extra Stomps. Remember that Stomp (outside of ITC) is allowed to hit units you aren't engaged with, so even if they DO decide to use bubblewrap to protect something, as long as it's not a superheavy/GC you can just go right ahead and Stomp it to pieces anyways. As neither vehicle is actually particularly good against Knights (due to being I3) I consider the Scorpion's lack there to be largely meaningless. As for the extra charge range, the Lord of Skulls has fleet, while the Scorpion has the 3d6 charge without fleet. It would greatly depend on your dice regarding which is better. Scorpion has a longer charge potential, to be sure. The LoS charges an average of 9", a max of 12", and has a "assured" (90%+ chance) charge range of 6". The Scorpion has an average charge range of 10", a max of 18", and an "assured" range of 7". I'd have to run the math to be sure, but I think the only time the Lord of Skulls could even be better off is at maybe at 5" distance, but I believe even that is worse from some quick mental math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have never seen the rear armor matter on either model- it's technically possible, but with their respective shapes and the way they tend to engage on the battlefield, I don't think it would come up much. The superior front AV is much more relevant, since it reduces the change of Meltabombs, Power Fists, Smash attacks, etc, will be able to hurt you. I would call the ranged weapons roughly on par overall, at least without upgrades. The Gattling Cannon is slightly better than the Scorpion Cannon (S8 rather than S6, twelve shots rather than ten), and the pair Hellmaw Cannons (S6 AP3 template) are once again obviously going to be worse than the LoS's Gorestorm Cannon (S8 AP3 hellstorm), but the Soulburner Cannon (S10 AP2 large blast ignores cover) goes a long ways towards mitigating those inferiorities. The Scorpion's larger number of guns also makes it much more capable of firing its weapons as a prelude to assaulting, something the Lord of Skulls can often struggle with (as it can easily put itself out of charge range.) Stomp is far, far better than Thunderblitz, not to even bring into consideration the Scorpion's extra Stomps. Remember that Stomp (outside of ITC) is allowed to hit units you aren't engaged with, so even if they DO decide to use bubblewrap to protect something, as long as it's not a superheavy/GC you can just go right ahead and Stomp it to pieces anyways. As neither vehicle is actually particularly good against Knights (due to being I3) I consider the Scorpion's lack there to be largely meaningless. The LoS charges an average of 9", a max of 12", and has a "assured" (90%+ chance) charge range of 6". The Scorpion has an average charge range of 10", a max of 18", and an "assured" range of 7". I'd have to run the math to be sure, but I think the only time the Lord of Skulls could even be better off is at maybe at 5" distance, but I believe even that is worse from some quick mental math. 1: Completely agree with regards to melee that walker front armor is better. That said, Lord of skulls can be built to hang back and shoot from afar. AV10 in the back means that 7th's vehicle explosions threaten the scorpion. Agree that traditional AT weapons don't really notice a difference between AV10 and AV11, but less traditional ones do see the distinction much larger, like plasma guns, krak grenades (launcher/thrown) and so forth. 2: Just about all the LoS weapons have more range than the Scorpion's. Depending on your table and how you use it, it really may not matter. I think that lord of skulls in a more conservative ranged roll makes much more sense, at least for the first turn or so. This is aided by gaining attacks per HP lost during the battle and HP regained not lowering the attacks (IWND or warpsmith). 3. So against Knights, I'd put my LoS/Scorpion behind terrain and force them to charge through cover. Knights lack assault grenades, so they'd swing second. Scorpion has WS 3 and 6 S10 attacks, while the LoS has WS4 and 4-10 S:D attacks. Scorpion is unlikely to entirely kill an undamaged knight, while LoS has pretty good odds to destroy one before it got to swing. If knights get to swing, they hit LoS on 4s and Scorpion on 3s. Not sure if this would make the knights keep their distance or attack as a pack... As for bubble wrap and such, the scorpion and LoS are large models which can easily be "road blocked" by cheap lesser models due to not being able to move through models. Bubble wraps can surround the super heavy instead of a friendly model. That Thunderblitz most certainly increases odds for free movement, though it isn't absolute. The big thing here is that the LoS gains attacks for damage taken, so death or glory is a way to kill AT units and gain attacks in the movement phase. Lord of Skulls is most certainly a semi-suicidal unit...Scorpion too, with that doomsday reactor. 4. Yeah, scorpion one is probably better for charges, now that I think about it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 @AP: Though I suppose the biggest thing is that auto-perils for psykers on the scorpion. Both defensive and offensive in design. I could easily buff the LoS with invisibility or Prescience, but I'd think twice before attempting the same on the brass scorpion. Only exception would be a IA13 renegade list, as their psykers gain a better profile if they perils...yeah, pretty funny unit entry. In this case, brass scorpion is by far the superior choice due to synergy with the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 If you are casting powers on either, you are doing it wrong. Khorne hates psykers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 If you are casting powers on either, you are doing it wrong. Khorne hates psykers. But he likes blood. If a psyker means more blood for the blood god, does he really hate psykers? It would make perfectly fluffy sense in a Black Legion army. Though I plan to model it as a warmachine from another diety... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappy Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 If you are casting powers on either, you are doing it wrong. Khorne hates psykers.Yes! The Blood God does not condone psychic shenanigans. No matter how much better it makes a unit. Psykers are cowards. Weak. WEAK!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 All big khorne dudes from demon prince on up should have the auto perils power like the brass scorpion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappy Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 All big khorne dudes from demon prince on up should have the auto perils power like the brass scorpion.I cannot, for the life of me, find any conceivable reason to dispute this. Khorne just need a little umph. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 They give up at least 25% of a game turn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I cannot, for the life of me, find any conceivable reason to dispute this. Khorne just need a little umph. Not enough GW support for Khorne, eh? Pretty sure there are more Khorne kits than just any other diety for chaos... Fantasy and 40k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappy Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Not enough GW support for Khorne, eh? Pretty sure there are more Khorne kits than just any other diety for chaos... Fantasy and 40k. Shush your common sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Not enough GW support for Khorne, eh? Pretty sure there are more Khorne kits than just any other diety for chaos... Fantasy and 40k. Model support =/= Rules support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Model support =/= Rules support. I know. My point is more that I want the Lord of skulls as a non-Khorne LoW just due to lack of model support. So when I get flakk because I'm not planning to use it in enough of a khorne-way, just bugs me due to the sheer lack of non-Khorne options that GW's pumped out. Where's my Silver Tower of Tzeentch? Or my Slaanesh Subjugator? GW doesn't even have current rules for those, much less models. Instead, I'm stuck with a Khorne model that the Khorne players don't want to even use because they already have too many other awesome Khorne choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Hmmm...last post of mine has me tempted to forgo the Lord of Skulls model and build a counts as Silver Tower or Slaanesh Subjugator... Been looking for scale photos of the Lord of Skulls, but really aren't too many. Can't seem to find any that show it compared to a land raider, or other tracked vehicle, but I suppose the knight is good enough for scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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