pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, all these bits about free vehicles, but between that eldar book and the admech books, vehicles may as well be free most of the time. Haywire is downright common in admech lists, despite being absolutely rare prior to that. D weapons are common in the eldar book. Both melt though vehicles like paper. Making Rhinos free is hardly a bonus when you need the rhinos to melt instead of your marines against the turn 1 shooting of admech or eldar. Rhinos are certainly not the concern. Drop Pods, and to a lesser extent Razors, are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, all these bits about free vehicles, but between that eldar book and the admech books, vehicles may as well be free most of the time. Haywire is downright common in admech lists, despite being absolutely rare prior to that. D weapons are common in the eldar book. Both melt though vehicles like paper. Making Rhinos free is hardly a bonus when you need the rhinos to melt instead of your marines against the turn 1 shooting of admech or eldar. Free stuff is still free stuff. Doesn't matter if its rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods or weapons platforms. Stuff has points costs for a reason, and tossin' out free stuff sortta defeats that purpose. Saying, 'Well, Eldar/Admech have this or that" as an excuse for free stuff doesn't change that - Admech/Eldar still pay points for those weapons (as far as I know). I've always hated this about games with 'summoning' rules, too. Yeah, you at least pay the points for the summoner, but whipping up free units of stuff just unbalances the game even more. I've read the threads here (and elsewhere) bemoaning the lack of 'balance' in GW's games... but I'd argue that handing out free stuff only makes it -worse-. If GW really did create 'free stuff' as a way to pad an army against D-weapons - that's just lazy rules-writing to the extreme. Personally I think they did it just to sell more figs (which is their job and goal, after all). I bet pretre is putting in his order for another half-dozen drop pods this week! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I bet pretre is putting in his order for another half-dozen drop pods this week! :) I'll take that bet*. * I WIN! I'm not ordering crap. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Rhinos are certainly not the concern. Drop Pods, and to a lesser extent Razors, are. Though that SM tank command set, the new hunter and stalker, plus probably others are bringing back the interceptor weapons. Plus FW access. Pods really aren't a very great option if the opponent has adequate interceptor weapon (Tau, anyone?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Free stuff is still free stuff. Doesn't matter if its rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods or weapons platforms. Stuff has points costs for a reason, and tossin' out free stuff sortta defeats that purpose. Saying, 'Well, Eldar/Admech have this or that" as an excuse for free stuff doesn't change that - Admech/Eldar still pay points for those weapons (as far as I know). I've always hated this about games with 'summoning' rules, too. Yeah, you at least pay the points for the summoner, but whipping up free units of stuff just unbalances the game even more. I've read the threads here (and elsewhere) bemoaning the lack of 'balance' in GW's games... but I'd argue that handing out free stuff only makes it -worse-. If GW really did create 'free stuff' as a way to pad an army against D-weapons - that's just lazy rules-writing to the extreme. Personally I think they did it just to sell more figs (which is their job and goal, after all). I bet pretre is putting in his order for another half-dozen drop pods this week! :) Dunno, if you've looked at the new admech/eldar, it is very clear that the offensive punch of 40k is increasing. The D weapons and common haywire are really only the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Dunno, if you've looked at the new admech/eldar, it is very clear that the offensive punch of 40k is increasing. The D weapons and common haywire are really only the tip. Oh, I don't disagree with you there - but I don't think that necessarily means that forces need to be given hundreds of points of free stuff in response. If anything, encouraging a horde of free vehicles just makes me even -more- likely to take D weapons/haywire. An 'escalation' of sorts, I suppose, but even then - I'm paying points for those weapons - while that formation isn't paying points for transports - some of which are actually pretty darned good. Maybe few Marine players would actually play a force like that, though, requiring that many pods/razors/rhinos. We'll see! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Oh, I don't disagree with you there - but I don't think that necessarily means that forces need to be given hundreds of points of free stuff in response. If anything, encouraging a horde of free vehicles just makes me even -more- likely to take D weapons/haywire. An 'escalation' of sorts, I suppose, but even then - I'm paying points for those weapons - while that formation isn't paying points for transports - some of which are actually pretty darned good. Maybe few Marine players would actually play a force like that, though, requiring that many pods/razors/rhinos. We'll see! :) Just seems like since apocalypse failed the second time around, GW is focusing on bringing apoc into normal 40k. Part of that is to squeeze an apocalyse point level of models into the normal 40k. Making pods, razors or rhinos free while simultaneously adding dramatic increases to the offensive punch of normal units seems like a solid push towards apocalypse style games at 2k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I don't disagree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Just seems like since apocalypse failed the second time around, GW is focusing on bringing apoc into normal 40k. Part of that is to squeeze an apocalyse point level of models into the normal 40k. Making pods, razors or rhinos free while simultaneously adding dramatic increases to the offensive punch of normal units seems like a solid push towards apocalypse style games at 2k. That certainly could be. And of course, one effect of that is... you need more STUFF. $$$$-ching! Well, SOME people would need more stuff. I know some of you guys probably already have 10k points in your favorite chapters. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, side note, how broken are Eldar in the current codex (without ITC nerfs) if SM have 300-600pts of free transports? I mean, one of the main issues with D weapons in the current edition is that they don't affect transported models anymore than wrecking them. Since they just glance them to death. So, relatively speaking, the free rhino is a pretty solid shield for marines to dodge a D weapon for a turn. We start 24" apart anyway, so if marines go fist, you've got a 12" move, a 6" flat out, then the Eldar player goes, demolishes the free transports, forcibly disembarking the marines 3" further towards the enemy, and then we have our marines within 3" of the enemy deploy zone on their turn 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 And then those marines get gunned down by Scatbikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 And then those marines get gunned down by Scatbikes. So you think that the marines are still underpowered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So you think that the marines are still underpowered? The strength of that formation is obsec and free models, not attack power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, side note, how broken are Eldar in the current codex (without ITC nerfs) if SM have 300-600pts of free transports? I mean, one of the main issues with D weapons in the current edition is that they don't affect transported models anymore than wrecking them. Since they just glance them to death. So, relatively speaking, the free rhino is a pretty solid shield for marines to dodge a D weapon for a turn. We start 24" apart anyway, so if marines go fist, you've got a 12" move, a 6" flat out, then the Eldar player goes, demolishes the free transports, forcibly disembarking the marines 3" further towards the enemy, and then we have our marines within 3" of the enemy deploy zone on their turn 2. There's a lot of variables involved, of course... if those transports are Drop Pods... can you take out some of those D-weapons before they even get to shoot? And in missions with objectives, as pretre has expanded on in various threads, DPs are just awesome. Even more awesome when they are free. Not to mention, the 'cheap' D-weapons have a 12" range (or less). If -they- go first, that could set you up quite nicely without taking much fire from them at all. If you look at Rhinos as 'D-shields'... I'm still paying hundreds of points for my weapons - while you get the 'shields' for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 The strength of that formation is obsec and free models, not attack power. Just the thought of having to remove 8+ drop pods/vehicles off objectives makes my head hurt. LOL. And to think of all the resources needed to do that, and hoping/needing to do it -quickly-, and then remembering all those pods/tanks are -free-... Grrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Yep, that's the problem. It just takes a okay list (SM drop) and makes it a great list by giving it more bodies, more obsec and pods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, side note, how broken are Eldar in the current codex (without ITC nerfs) if SM have 300-600pts of free transports? I'm pretty sure in a non-ITC format, Eldar wreck Marines pretty good. They have easy access to Interceptor and other tricks to cover their weaknesses and while free transports are good, there's a pretty huge investment required to unlock them, whereas all the Eldar have to do to unlock their good stuff is play Eldar. Also, it's entirely possible to bring both Marines AND Eldar together, even in an 1850 army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I'm pretty sure in a non-ITC format, Eldar wreck Marines pretty good. They have easy access to Interceptor and other tricks to cover their weaknesses and while free transports are good, there's a pretty huge investment required to unlock them, whereas all the Eldar have to do to unlock their good stuff is play Eldar. Also, it's entirely possible to bring both Marines AND Eldar together, even in an 1850 army. Yeah, pretty easy to do demi or double demi and eldar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 It's just the last time I seriously tried a turn 1 DS list, I got stuck against TAU with those S8 ap2 large blast interceptor shots. Not exactly the most encouraging thing when testing a new list concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 It's just the last time I seriously tried a turn 1 DS list, I got stuck against TAU with those S8 ap2 large blast interceptor shots. Not exactly the most encouraging thing when testing a new list concept. So you try it again. Most lists need more than one game to test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 So you try it again. Most lists need more than one game to test. I know. My main beef with pod armies in my own forces relates to transportation of the pods themselves in my army transport case - I'm on foot and they just take up too much space. Anyway, I do think that if the number of interceptor weapons increases, free pods will be less appealing. I hear TAU are due for a new book, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 It's just the last time I seriously tried a turn 1 DS list, I got stuck against TAU with those S8 ap2 large blast interceptor shots. Not exactly the most encouraging thing when testing a new list concept. A perfect example of 'wrong place, wrong time'. Ouch! ;) "Interceptor"... is that an ability -units- usually have, or specific weapons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 It is pretty rare except for Tau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 It is pretty rare except for Tau. Presently, yes. Though that SM command tank option has the ability to grant it to anything. Mind you, you'd have to go first to have it affect the opponent's turn 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I know. My main beef with pod armies in my own forces relates to transportation of the pods themselves in my army transport case - I'm on foot and they just take up too much space. I hear you there- there are lots of units I like but are a pain in the a** to transport around. It's one of the main reasons I don't own a Wraithknight. A perfect example of 'wrong place, wrong time'. Ouch! ;) "Interceptor"... is that an ability -units- usually have, or specific weapons? Interceptor is a weapon ability, although Tau have an upgrade that gives it to all weapons on a particular model. However, outside of the Tau codex it is EXTREMELY rare- there are maybe half a dozen examples of it in the entire game, and the majority of them are also Skyfire and thus bad at shooting ground targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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