MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 First up, I actually think AoS will be a great complex game once more of the new Scrolls come out but for the moment I am enjoying the fast paced and fun gameplay. My question comes from the way you resolve Saves when it comes from a weapon that does multiple wounds. Lets take Ungrim as an example. His weapon has 2 Dmg and he has 4 attacks, the way I have resolved him in melee is the following Process of Operation: Scenario A:4 Attacks, Hitting on 3+ -> 3 Hits, Wounding on 3+ -> 2 Success, 2 Dmg -> 4 WoundsMy opponent than takes 4 Saves. Etc... But I have concerned that perhaps it should be played the following: Scenario B: 4 Attacks, Hitting on 3+ -> 3 Hits, Wounding on 3+ -> 2 Success, 2 DmgMy opponent than takes 2 Saves and if he fails any than he takes the Dmg amount. Scenario C: 4 Attacks, Hitting on 3+ -> 3 Hits, 2DMG Weapon must not roll 6 Wound Rolls on 3+ -> 4 WoundsMy opponent than takes 4 Saves. Though I cannot find anywhere in the rules where it would say the game should be resolved like B and I feel that it jut feel that way cause thats how it was done in Fantasy for multiwounds.In the Rulebook under Section 4: "Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some can inflict 2 or more wounds, allowing them to cause grievous injuries to even the mightiest foe, or to cleave through more than one opponent with but a single blow! In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same To Hit, To Wound, Rend and Damage characteristics, and must be directed at the same enemy unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls, and finally all of the save rolls; then add up the total number of wounds caused" As you can see it feels to me that the order of operation is Hits Scored * Dmg = Wounds Rolls. What does everyone think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I... You have an excellent argument. I played it as unsaved wounds were multiplied by damage... but now that I read it I have no idea which scenario is correct. That's just how it was done in 8th, with the main difference being that multiple models can die from a multiple wound attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 yea its not clear at all in that passage... which is sad. it really comes down, imo, to 'what is a successful attack?' is a successful attack one that was not saved or one that caused a wound before a save. id probably lean towards option B, just because a 'saved wound' doesnt seem successful but yay GW rules writing ftw! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 You make saves then determine how much damage. 1. Roll to hit 2. Roll to wound 3. Roll saves 4. Determine amout of damage I believe last page of rules. Hard to tell i have the app. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Well the problem is at which step do you determine how many wounds are there before or after you roll to wound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 It tells you in determining wounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 have the rules in front of me and the order is 1.hit rill 2.wound roll 3.save roll mechanics for those 3 are all pretty straighforward 4.determine damage each succesfull attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the damage on the weapon profile. To me a succesfull attack is an attack that hit, wounded, and target failed their save. So i have 4 attacks --> 3 hit --> 2 wound --> defender takes 2 saves and fails 1 --> my weapon damage is 2 so 2 wounds are inflicted 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 have the rules in front of me and the order is 1.hit rill 2.wound roll 3.save roll mechanics for those 3 are all pretty straighforward 4.determine damage each succesfull attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the damage on the weapon profile. To me a succesfull attack is an attack that hit, wounded, and target failed their save. So i have 4 attacks --> 3 hit --> 2 wound --> defender takes 2 saves and fails 1 --> my weapon damage is 2 so 2 wounds are inflicted yea that bottom line of order is why i tend to lean that way as well... plus its how 8th worked. *shrugs* but unlike 8th where it was crystal clear, they left a bit to be desired in their skimmed version. literally just need to add a few words to make it clear but oh [big bad swear word] that might make it 5 pages. the horror! sorry ill stop with the sarcasm now :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 have the rules in front of me and the order is 1.hit rill 2.wound roll 3.save roll mechanics for those 3 are all pretty straighforward 4.determine damage each succesfull attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the damage on the weapon profile. To me a succesfull attack is an attack that hit, wounded, and target failed their save. So i have 4 attacks --> 3 hit --> 2 wound --> defender takes 2 saves and fails 1 --> my weapon damage is 2 so 2 wounds are inflicted Right but I just literally spelled to you the rules from the RB and it says specifically each successful hit inflicts number of wounds equal to the damage of the weapon. So in your scenario 1. Hit 2a. Multiple Hits * Dmg 2b. Roll to Wound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Wounds are multiplied after saves are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Wounds are multiplied after saves are made. Not to be contrarian but can you find the passage in the Rules were it says that. I would love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 It does in the determine daamage step. why would you need a determine damage step if you did it already when you rolled for wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 If wounds are multiplied after saves are failed, does that mean a those wounds have to go on the same model? I.e. the guy in the original example with 4 attacks doing 2 damage. Lets say he succeeds on all four hits... The opponent only makes 4 saves, so how could he lose 8 guys if he only gets 4 saves? Not arguing of course, just trying to make sense of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 It does in the determine daamage step. why would you need a determine damage step if you did it already when you rolled for wounds. Not to burst your bubble its not actually not so clear: After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they see fit (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit). When inflicting damage, if you allocate a wound to a model, you must keep on allocating wounds to that model until either it is slain, or no more wounds remain to be allocated. So I do not see much in here that clarifies any of my previous inquiry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 If you make 4 saves you take no damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 If you make 4 saves you take no damage. Ok... Are you just trolling me at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Not to be contrarian but can you find the passage in the Rules were it says that. I would love it. Right but I just literally spelled to you the rules from the RB and it says specifically each successful hit inflicts number of wounds equal to the damage of the weapon. See you put the word successful "HIT" which it doesnt say,causing the confusion, as "to hit" is a phase already done in step 1. 4. Determining Damage. it says "All successful ATTACKS inflict a number of wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon". This is listed after steps 1-3 which describe hit rolls, wound rolls, and rend. A successful attack is an attack that was not saved during step 3, rolling for saves. The problem is the English language being big and unwieldy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 See you put the word successful "HIT" which it doesnt say,causing the confusion, as "to hit" is a phase already done in step 1. 4. Determining Damage. it says "All successful ATTACKS inflict a number of wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon". This is listed after steps 1-3 which describe hit rolls, wound rolls, and rend. A successful attack is an attack that was not saved during step 3, rolling for saves. The problem is the English language being big and unwieldy. Yeah, I see the step by step logic but Step 4 seems contradictory but I can see that as a good Rules backer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Well I just wouldnt consider the attack successful until they failed their save, then the wounds are multiplied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Ok... Are you just trolling me at this point? Ok if you hit 4 times you roll 4 wounds if you wound 4 times then If you save 4 wound you take no damage. you only determine damage after failed save. Last line under saves step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yeah it's pretty crystal clear IMO. The take save step is before determining damage step and it actually says that if your damge is more than 1 and you are attacking a unit of 1 wound models that you kill multiple models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 The android AOS app version has unambiguous text for making single attacks. "The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:" "1. Hit Roll: Roll a dice..." "2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice..." "3. Save Roll: The opposing player rolls a dice..." "4. Determine Damage: Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack deals a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic for the weapon." Single attacks always have just 1 dice rolled for wound rolls. Though the brief paragraph about batching attacks may be ambiguous, it's absurd to think it would be different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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