DA...bad?

[Tamwulf]

Jinking would not affect Brandon's Lion's Blade force at all, as he had no units in it that could jink. The bikes and speeder were in the Ravenclaw formation. And being blind is such a rare thing- I can think of a psychic power that does it, and maybe a grenade from Grey Knights/Witch Hunters? Oh, and some Eldar weapon that no one ever takes too. I'm not sure on that one.

 

I would think the real weakness is the inability to really do anything in close combat. The list is 100% shooty, with nothing in close combat. Though it has a lot of units, and the inability to consolidate into close combat anymore really hurts assault based armies (not to mention overwatch at BS 4... LOL). If you could make it, and engage enough of his units at once, I think the list would have fallen. The question is, what kind of list? An infantry heavy list of Orks or Bugs maybe? Or a smaller, elite force, like maybe Deathwatch? It would have been very interesting to see the lists of the people he faced. I know he faced at least one Daemon player- but I wonder if it had a Greater Daemon of Khorne or Nurgle in it? Or I wonder how well it would have done against a massed Cultist-spam army? I was surprised that he won against the Imperial Knight list, until I realized that the Knights wouldn't be able to take objectives, and with 10+ units, Brandon's list would be very adept at taking objectives.

 

About the Tau being "non-competitive"- it's because ITC has pretty much locked down and nerfed any real cheese that the Tau can bring to the table. Everyone was so scared of multiple Riptides when in reality, they turned out to be a paper tiger. Stormsurges are pretty awesome, but again, ITC has locked those down tight. Multiple units firing overwatch sounds great, but it's still only BS 1. Maybe higher if you get lucky with the right wargear/markerlights/etc. ITC really nerfed Coordinated Firepower from the Detachment, but it's perfectly OK to be able to get free transports for all your MEQ units. LOL I still think Tau are a solid, competitive army, but people have learned how to deal with them.

[WestRider]

Bloodthirsters and such aren't the real Assault threat to an Army like this. It's more stuff like massed Flesh Hounds or Fenrisian Wolves, that have the speed, footprint, and raw number of S4-5 Attacks to surround and take out Rhinos along with the Unit inside, and can take on those Minimum-sized Squads no problem, even if they do disembark in time.

 

Tau are in an awkward place. Their raw firepower can see them past anything short of top tier (and in fact, often roflstomp those lists), but they don't really have the mobility to hang with the truly top tier lists.

[Guest]

Jinking would not affect Brandon's Lion's Blade force at all, as he had no units in it that could jink. The bikes and speeder were in the Ravenclaw formation. And being blind is such a rare thing- I can think of a psychic power that does it, and maybe a grenade from Grey Knights/Witch Hunters? Oh, and some Eldar weapon that no one ever takes too. I'm not sure on that one.

 

I would think the real weakness is the inability to really do anything in close combat. The list is 100% shooty, with nothing in close combat. Though it has a lot of units, and the inability to consolidate into close combat anymore really hurts assault based armies (not to mention overwatch at BS 4... LOL). .

Don't underestimate stock marines in close combat. They might not have the toys to be effiecent in melee, but they aren't pushovers either. Plus the entirity of the DA is either fearless or stubborn, so they don't flee combats very often, even while losing. 

 

Was very much refering to the formation limitations in general. As for blinding, recall that when thrown, defensive grenades have the blind rule. Blinding is commonly found in most codexes, but isn't very common within each codex. Though regarding my use of  blinding, I just meant anything that reduced BS scores.

[fluger]

About the Tau being "non-competitive"- it's because ITC has pretty much locked down and nerfed any real cheese that the Tau can bring to the table. Everyone was so scared of multiple Riptides when in reality, they turned out to be a paper tiger. Stormsurges are pretty awesome, but again, ITC has locked those down tight. Multiple units firing overwatch sounds great, but it's still only BS 1. Maybe higher if you get lucky with the right wargear/markerlights/etc. ITC really nerfed Coordinated Firepower from the Detachment, but it's perfectly OK to be able to get free transports for all your MEQ units. LOL I still think Tau are a solid, competitive army, but people have learned how to deal with them.

 

ITC isn't in every tournament.  Look at NOVA, look at Adepticon, look at basically anything.  Tau do well in middle tier, but can't make it to top tables.  

 

As to the list having no close combat ability, I think you are gravely mistaken, because those bikers are good enough in melee to scare quite a few things.  They don't have to be great at melee, just good enough to survive, engage, and hold.  

 

It occurs to me that I linked the wrong page.  Here is Brandon talking about his list and how he uses it.  

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/07/31/40k-list-tech-how-to-win-with-deathstar-free-dark-angels/

 

Anyway, the point of this thread was to refute your position that DA are awful with concrete examples of them doing well.  

 

Ultimately, the thing DA do that gives them a big leg up is have Black Knights, because that re-rollable jink save is beautiful and really helps them stay alive, that gives this list the edge it needs to be tough and versatile.  

[Tamwulf]

I said DA are awful because anything they can do, another army can do better. Even Brandon in his commentary said that he lacked a lot of things other armies get, and that it was his practice and experience along with having a game plan before every game that saw him through. His army did nothing well, but it could do everything in a passable fashion. He listed several hard counters to his list, but from looking at the armies he faced in the tournament, he never faced any of them. This is a bit surprising, as such lists tend to be plentiful in larger tournaments. He never faced a Marine Skyhammer Force, never saw Warpspider Spam, or fought a Tau list, never fought a Deathstar, and didn't face a Necron list. He was a good player and knew his army and went into every game with a plan. He did face a Cabal Star, which could have been terrifying if his opponent rolled the right psychic powers, or just a very over priced unit of Chaos Sorcerer. Hard to tell. Again, I'd love to see the lists of the opponents he faced. He never had a bad match up.

 

My assertion was more about if you go all DA infantry, another army does that better. If you go all Ravenwing Bikes, White Scars do it better. If you go all Deathwing, Ultramarines or Space Wolves do it better. Flyers? Other armies have better flyers. The DA are outclassed in every single mono category. When they are used in a comprehensive fashion and the right formation, they become equal to a lot of armies. The disadvantages are still there, it's just that they are now mitigated somewhat by play style, experience, and practice.

 

The list was complicated, and a very much "All Comers List" that he practiced with and knew very well. He had a plan for every game, and executed that plan. He never "winged it" (get it? LOL Sorry, couldn't resist) and very much used probabilities and statistics to measure the expected performance of his army vs. his opponents army. Any player that does that with any army will do well.

 

I do agree that Black Knights are a pivotal unit for DA, and all the "successful" lists of DA I have seen include at least 1-2 units of them. If DA become the new "meta"- awesome! Just means people will adapt, change their own lists, and then the DA will be replaced by another successful army and a new "meta" will emerge. What will be fun is playing all those DA players that will now be "Net Listing" this army. Fun times ahead! 

[Guest]

My assertion was more about if you go all DA infantry, another army does that better. If you go all Ravenwing Bikes, White Scars do it better. If you go all Deathwing, Ultramarines or Space Wolves do it better. Flyers? Other armies have better flyers. The DA are outclassed in every single mono category. When they are used in a comprehensive fashion and the right formation, they become equal to a lot of armies. The disadvantages are still there, it's just that they are now mitigated somewhat by play style, experience, and practice. 

That should reflect marines in general. Marines are supposed to be be above average at everything, not amazing at anything. That's kinda their thing. 

 

You are correct, there are certain ways to build marine armies which caplitalize on one aspect of their forces.   Marines are the most forgiving army and the most tactically flexible. Their army can be focused into a single aspect, but the strength of marines is not in pure one-unit-type army themes.  Regarding army specialization, TAU and IG are always going to be better in the shooting phase than marines. Eldar and Dark Eldar will always be faster. Orks will always be more numerous. And chaos will always be more fun to model.

 

Yeah, White Scars and Ravenwing can bring bikes, but in terms of fast armies, bikes are not the only way to accomplish this. 

[WestRider]

Pax, he's talking specifically about other Marine Armies here. Note the specific comparisons he makes.

[Guest]

Pax, he's talking specifically about other Marine Armies here. Note the specific comparisons he makes.

I got that, but he's sort of missing the point, since he's only comparing marine armies. 

 

I do agree that Black Knights are a pivotal unit for DA, and all the "successful" lists of DA I have seen include at least 1-2 units of them. If DA become the new "meta"- awesome! Just means people will adapt, change their own lists, and then the DA will be replaced by another successful army and a new "meta" will emerge. What will be fun is playing all those DA players that will now be "Net Listing" this army. Fun times ahead! 

Side note, the Black Knight unit and Ravenwing command squad are basically the same unit. They have pretty the same weapons and wargear, but the knights have a larger max unit size and the command squad can take an apothecary. Both are elites. So, most of those "net lists" don't include any stock DA marine bikers. 

 

As for why they include them, the bottom line is that the Black Knight unit is quite amazing. One of the most versatile units for marines in general. It's basically a unit of genestealers in power armor with jump packs and twin-linked assault plasma guns. 

 

Only good reasons not to field the Black Knights are becuase you don't have the points, don't have the models, or can't include them in your detachment. As for normal DA and WS bikers, only reason to field either is because you can't fill every slot with Black Knights....The Black Knights are that viable.

[WestRider]

I got that, but he's sort of missing the point, since he's only comparing marine armies. 

 

Which is relevant if someone's at the point where they like the general aesthetic of SM, and knows they want to play some variety, but is trying to narrow it down past that.

[Guest]

Which is relevant if someone's at the point where they like the general aesthetic of SM, and knows they want to play some variety, but is trying to narrow it down past that.

Good point.

[AbusePuppy]

I said DA are awful because anything they can do, another army can do better.

 

This is patently untrue. BS4 overwatch is very different in character from the rerolls/HnR that SM have. Additionally, most DA lists feature one or more of the auxiliary formations as a significant contributor to the army, whereas SM typically just fit in a minimum 10th Company and call it a day.

 

 

My assertion was more about if you go all DA infantry, another army does that better. If you go all Ravenwing Bikes, White Scars do it better.

 

Again, not true at all. The Ravenwing rule means that DA's bikes are vastly more survivable than their SM counterparts, and Scout as a universal means they are not locked into a particular HQ choice. Moreover, SM have no equivalent to Black Knights, which are not only an effective shooting unit but also fairly strong in melee and come with a potentially-powerful debuff. They are in a wholly different class from something like a Command Squad on bikes and the ability to form an entire portion of an army out of them (or out of stuff like Attack Bikes, etc) is a very big deal.

[WestRider]

DA good. Fire bad.

 

Sorry. I've been repressing that since this thread started, and finally couldn't hold it in any more.

[pretre]

DA good. Fire bad.

 

Sorry. I've been repressing that since this thread started, and finally couldn't hold it in any more.