fluger Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 There is nothing that a DA player can do that another army can't do better, and for cheaper points too. That's from a different thread and I thought I'd like to branch it out to a different thread. Anyway, in regards to that statement, I present: That is Brandon Grant, winner at BAO with a pure DA list. More info about that here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/07/18/bay-area-open-live-coverage/ As well, my buddy Brindley just won the South Africa Nationals with his DA list. My point, is DA are fine. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The DeathWing are pretty badly overpriced, but a mix of Green and RavenWing can do very well. Especially since they're the only Chapter outside of the base Dex that gets a Battle Company. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yeah, I like, and play, the current DA codex. No real faults. If pushed for an area lacking, DA has no dedicated flyer solutions without FW models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Proof is in the pudding. You can SAY something is bad and SAY something is unusable...but then...That's only because it's America and we let you say anything as long as you're not a catcher for the Seattle Mariners in which case you get told your livelihood will be taken away for saying what you think. But other than that...Yeah Dark Angels are good. JUST talked to my friend in Oklahoma and he just bagged a Dark Angel army for cheap and will be going to town with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Main thing with the current DA is that they don't have many of the new toys that SM or SW have access too. The old toys didn't stop working and the DA still function great, but the faction has a few areas where they just don't have anything without FW access. For examples: -No flying transports. -No Barrage other than stock Whirlwinds. -No weapons with longer than 48" of range (other than one-use weapons, like HK missiles). -No eternal warrior access (like as an upgrade to a non-special character) -No skyfire weapons (other than flakk missiles). -No multi-wound models that aren't HQ other than attack bikes. Now, none of these things are huge losses, but it does limit what a mono-DA force can do without FW inclusions. Most of the impressive units from other factions fit into one or more of these groups. I'll also note that the majority of DA ICs are fearless, which is useful, but also means they (and their unit) can't go to ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Proof is in the pudding. You can SAY something is bad and SAY something is unusable...but then...That's only because it's America and we let you say anything as long as you're not a catcher for the Seattle Mariners in which case you get told your livelihood will be taken away for saying what you think. But other than that...Yeah Dark Angels are good. JUST talked to my friend in Oklahoma and he just bagged a Dark Angel army for cheap and will be going to town with it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Most of the things you list as "missing" are either really niche stuff (who cares that they can't get EW for their generic HQs? no one wants to buy EW for a Librarian anyways) or stuff that doesn't have any relevance to tournaments in the first place (the Stormraven is the only flying transport SM get, and it hasn't been a competititor since very early 7E.) Also, with regards to barrage weapons, I believe DA get the Quad Mortar from FW, which is actually better than the Thunderfire against most targets. Sadly, the lack of effective Skyfire is universal to most codices; only Tau, Skitarii, and Eldar really get effective Skyfire options. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Most of the things you list as "missing" are either really niche stuff (who cares that they can't get EW for their generic HQs? no one wants to buy EW for a Librarian anyways) or stuff that doesn't have any relevance to tournaments in the first place (the Stormraven is the only flying transport SM get, and it hasn't been a competititor since very early 7E.) Also, with regards to barrage weapons, I believe DA get the Quad Mortar from FW, which is actually better than the Thunderfire against most targets. Sadly, the lack of effective Skyfire is universal to most codices; only Tau, Skitarii, and Eldar really get effective Skyfire options. Niche? Entire list is things found in codex: SM. And I agree, if going FW, I can fill all of the lacking areas. For flying transports, the Storm Raven and that SW one, no clue what it is called. Every Marine chapter, barring DA and Chaos Space Marines, has a flying transport option in their codex. Surprised DA didn't get one. Yeah, that barrage comment was directed at the thunderfire. We also don't have the Orbital strike option once-per-game, which may or may not still be an SM chapter master thing. Regarding ranged weapons, the thunderfire has 60", the conversion beamer (another one DA don't have), and a few others. I don't expect them to be common for SM, but having one or two useful (HKs are not useful) extreme range options is tactically sound, so as to prevent the opponent from outranging us. Eternal Warrior is not what it was, but we do have two IC options which would benefit from EW, the Interrogator chaplain and the company master. Maybe not every list, but it would be nice to have. EW has become less common for marine forces, though, so it is somewhat understable. I was annoyed DA didn't get access to those SM AA-tank options. I agree, not amazing options, but they seem like something DA would have, along with rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders vindicators, and whirlwinds. Just very standard looking SM tank options that every chapter should have. As for multi-wound non HQ models: SW has the thunderwolves, GK have their paladins, SM have two types of centurions, and DA have nothing. We have attack bikers, but so do SM and BA. Speaking of, BA have pretty much most of the same issues that DA have. Their codex isn't lacking, but also lack the new toys that SM sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The only thing that BA lack is a Battle Company. The only reason that guy won with DA is because they have a Battle Company. Talking about any kind of SM ina tournament settibg is a binary conversation. Does it have a Battle Company? Done and done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Niche? Entire list is things found in codex: SM. And I agree, if going FW, I can fill all of the lacking areas You are right that they are things that DA is lacking- in the sense that they do not have access to them through their own book- but that doesn't mean they aren't niche. For example, continuing with the flying transports example, flying transports are not a core part of the game; they are not a core strategy for any army, and they are not a major factor on the tournament scene. DA lacks access to them, but that lack isn't important because it does not impede their ability to write an effective list in any realistic way. FW models are pretty commonplace in the tournament scene now, so I think not "counting" them is something of a fallacy. Regarding ranged weapons, the thunderfire has 60", the conversion beamer (another one DA don't have), and a few others. I don't expect them to be common for SM, but having one or two useful (HKs are not useful) extreme range options is tactically sound, so as to prevent the opponent from outranging us. 48", the vast majority of the time, might as well be across the board. While it does occasionally happen that it isn't long enough, those are typically situations you can see coming in advance and plan for. And, as I said, the TFC is the only commonly-seen gun with a range over 48" in SM- and even then, it is taken more because of Barrage and Ignores cover than anything. Eternal Warrior is not what it was, but we do have two IC options which would benefit from EW, the Interrogator chaplain and the company master. Maybe not every list, but it would be nice to have. EW has become less common for marine forces, though, so it is somewhat understable. The question is, if you could buy EW for those models, would you? If you had access to the Shield Eternal, would you put it on an Interrogator-Chaplain? I sure wouldn't. I don't want to spend 50pts to buff up a character who isn't really that impressive of a melee fighter to begin with. Ditto for the Company Master- Captains haven't been good for a long time now and they still aren't. The only reason you take him is because the Battle Company rules force you to, and spending points on him (as opposed to on your regular squads) is generally not effective. There are definitely things that DA is lacking compared to SM; thier BS2/4 Overwatch in place of Hit and Run (and rerolling Run) on their basic models can be a significant issue, although that's not strictly worse. They lack Devastator Centurions, though I don't think that's as big an issue as people make it out to be. The Nephelim, though a fairly acceptable airplane, is much more expensive than the Stormtalon and doesn't feature in nearly as good of formations. None of the DA relics come anywhere near being as good as the Hunter's Eye or many of the other SM options. Even beyond mere Battle Companies, SM have options such as Lias Issodon, the Talon Strike Force, etc, etc, which can be quite competitive. DA is essentially a sidegrade compared to SM- they gain some things and lack others, but more often than not they aren't the things that people think they are. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted September 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yeah, I like, and play, the current DA codex. No real faults. If pushed for an area lacking, DA has no dedicated flyer solutions without FW models. They have two, unique flyers. They aren't great solutions, but they are solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 They have two, unique flyers. They aren't great solutions, but they are solutions. The Dark Talon isn't, because all its Weapons are either S4 or Blasts, but the Nephilim can plink away reasonably well at other Flyers. It's just overpriced compared to things like the Storm Talon or Storm Hawk, but not inherently bad at its job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The Dark Talon isn't, because all its Weapons are either S4 or Blasts, but the Nephilim can plink away reasonably well at other Flyers. It's just overpriced compared to things like the Storm Talon or Storm Hawk, but not inherently bad at its job. Correct. That Nephilim's points suffer because it has 3 HP, but is otherwise a Storm Talon. Stock weapons are also only able to glance AV12. They have to upgrade for single TL lascannon if they want hopes of penetrating an AV12+ flyer. I've run the flyers a few times. They're okay, but they don't bring to the table any sort of AA solution. If anything, both are geared towards attacking ground targets much better than other flyers. For codex DA anti-flyer options, the best unit I've found is the RW Black Knights. And that just uses volume fire plasma guns to hit flyers. It's not fluffy at all, given the fixed forward plasma guns on the bikes, but that is our most reliable AA option without FW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 I still stand by what I said. The guy in the above is using Green Wing and Raven Wing together in a Ducerian Style, Dual CAD. Even the commentator at the BAO said his list was sub-par, but Brandon was a good player able to overcome the challenge. He was also paired down in the final round, meaning he was playing for 3rd or 4th place, but due to a tie on the first table, he won the whole tournament. In trying to understand his list- he had two Battle Demi-Companies to make the Lion's Blade Strike Force, and then another detachment of Ravenwing Strike Force. So he had two formations that made one detachment, and then another detachment? Ah, yeah, after reading Decurian Style formations and detachments in the ITC packet about a dozen times, it finally makes sense. So basically, he got free Rhino's, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods- 410 points worth if I calculated it correctly. Everything in the Lion Blade detachment received Grim Resolve, meaning full BS in Overwatch. Then all the Ravenwing bikes get a +1 BS for shooting at the same unit another Ravenwing unit has hit. Very nice! A very complicated army to run. Would love to actually watch him play the army. Brandon was playing a 2,260 point list in a 1,850 point game, and I really wonder if that had a lot to do with his success, and if any of the other Space Marine players (all 32 of them, and the other 24 Chapter lists!) ran something similar? Does any other Codex right now give you as much free stuff as the Space Marine and Dark Angels detachments? Still, if you want Terminators, then you look at Space Wolves or Grey Knights. If you want bikes, White Scars. Tactical Squads? Well, here it's a bit tricky. Tactical Squads pretty much suck, unless you can spam a lot of them, and you can use them together coherently in a battle plan to win the game. The ones he was using didn't even have Objective Secured! Brandon had five 5-man Tactical Squads, a 5-man scout squad, two 5-man assault squads, and two 5-man Devastator Squads. The only squads not min sized were the bike squads, and he had very little wargear- I'm estimating about 100 points? 120? The more I look at his army, the more it buggers belief in how it did so well. He only had "3" Melta weapons and 3 Grav-cannons for anti-armor, he had no anti-flyer at all... I just... wow! Everything screams to me that this list should not have done well at all. My opinion, Brandon is a great player, and it was a perfect storm of opponents and the final tie at the first table that allowed him to get 1st place. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 My opinion, Brandon is a great player, and it was a perfect storm of opponents and the final tie at the first table that allowed him to get 1st place. :) That is how tournaments work. I mean, even the best player coupled with bad luck and mismatched opponents will have trouble taking first place at an event. As for his list, you are correct, the formations are what make that list viable. The DA can sport other mono-DA lists, that do work, but like most 40k armies, they greatly benefit from FW and ally access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The ones he was using didn't even have Objective Secured! Yes, they do. The DA Demi-Company is the only one other than the basic SM one that provides ObSec to everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes, they do. The DA Demi-Company is the only one other than the basic SM one that provides ObSec to everything. Ah, yeah, I missed that. The Battle Demi-Company does, but not the Ravenwing Strike Force. Still, is it really playable/worth it to try and run a Lions Blade Strike Force Detachment? They get Grim Resolve instead of Combat Doctrines. I think I'd rather be able to shoot overwatch at BS 2 and Stubborn the whole game instead of once per game re-rolling 1's to hit with certain units. Hmm, something to look into a bit more perhaps... If you take away the Ravenwing Strike Force and replace it with another CAD or Formation, it could easily be a generic Space Marine Gladius Strike Force instead. I must admit, I remember seeing a lot of chatter about the Gladius Strike Force, but never looked into it all that much. Seems pretty easy to pull off in 1500 points, giving you a "free" 400+ points in dedicated transports like in Brandon's army. Bleh, is this what 40K has become? Find the best Detachment, and spam the heck out of it? Kinda makes me sad. I know a lot of people don't like Hero Hammer, but I think I'd prefer running a couple 300-500 point Hero's (with the capital 'H') that clash in epic one on one combat while the rest of the army does it's own thing... kinda like what you see in AoS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted September 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 There's also my buddy Morticon at the South Africa Nationals. As a comparison, as much whining as I hear about Tau I don't see them at top tables or winning big events... Tournaments generally weed out the pretenders from the contenders. DA winning two major tournaments in the span of a few months should speak volumes to how effective they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted September 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Bleh, is this what 40K has become? Find the best Detachment, and spam the heck out of it? Its never changed, other than replacing "unit" and "codex" in stead of Detachment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted September 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Here's Morts battle reports as they are unfolding on Bolter and Chainsword. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324272-road-to-nationals-2016-1850-national-tournament/page-6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes, they do. The DA Demi-Company is the only one other than the basic SM one that provides ObSec to everything. The DA one is wonky. The Lion's blade doesn't have scoring by itself, but the battle demi-company does. So within the lion's blade, you have two battle demi-companies and the scouts, which are an Auxiliary section that is mandatory. The Scouts are not objective secured in this list, because they are not part of either battle demi-company. The Lion's blade does have other options for the mandatory Auxiliary selection, but the scouts are the cheapest in points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Ah, yeah, I missed that. The Battle Demi-Company does, but not the Ravenwing Strike Force. Still, is it really playable/worth it to try and run a Lions Blade Strike Force Detachment? They get Grim Resolve instead of Combat Doctrines. I think I'd rather be able to shoot overwatch at BS 2 and Stubborn the whole game instead of once per game re-rolling 1's to hit with certain units. Hmm, something to look into a bit more perhaps... BS4 Overwatch, for the most part. They get BS2 from their "Chapter Tactics", BS3 if they're in a Demi-Company that's not part of a Lion's Blade, and full BS Overwatch in a Lion's Blade. It's not as good as H&R from White Scars, but that's partially compensated by being able to take just a single Scout Squad to fill the Aux requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The DA one is wonky. The Lion's blade doesn't have scoring by itself, but the battle demi-company does. So within the lion's blade, you have two battle demi-companies and the scouts, which are an Auxiliary section that is mandatory. The Scouts are not objective secured in this list, because they are not part of either battle demi-company. The Lion's blade does have other options for the mandatory Auxiliary selection, but the scouts are the cheapest in points. The Gladius is exactly the same. ObSec comes from the Demi-Company, not the Gladius itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 BS4 Overwatch, for the most part. They get BS2 from their "Chapter Tactics", BS3 if they're in a Demi-Company that's not part of a Lion's Blade, and full BS Overwatch in a Lion's Blade. It's not as good as H&R from White Scars, but that's partially compensated by being able to take just a single Scout Squad to fill the Aux requirement. I will note that their are some weak points to the lion's blade, and the DA overwatch ability in general. First, we lose the overwatch fixed BS rule (called grim resolve) if we jink. Second, and this is pretty contextual, the Lion's blade alters grim resolve to opperate at their current BS score, even if that would be lower than the BS 2 or 3 granted by the other formations. So while it's nice to overwatch at BS 4 most of the time, a blinded DA unit is overwatching at BS 1. Meanwhile, a blinded DA unit not in the lion's blade formation, is overwatching at BS2. Really doesn't happen much, but it is important as the DA player to aware of the double edged sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The Gladius is exactly the same. ObSec comes from the Demi-Company, not the Gladius itself. My mistake, still don't have that codex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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