Reducing attacks

[Guest]

Spin off from another thread.

 

If I have an ability that reduces the attacks of a target, does this include attacks like hammer of wrath, which are "extra" attacks.

 

Furthermore, who chooses which attacks are removed?

[Guest]

For example: Maulerfiend with lasher tendrils is charged by a single SM biker. Normally, SM biker would have 3 attacks (1 base, 1 for the charge, and 1 for hammer of wrath). The 2 sets of Lasher tendrils reduce the attacks of the SM biker by 2, to a minimum of 1 attack. Is the hammer of wrath considered one of these attacks, and if so, how are the attacks that are reduced to nothing selected?

 

Ignoring the fact that the SM biker will probably not do any damage with any of these attacks, of course. 

 

Another one, does a Monstrous creature using smash, reduce all its close combat attacks to make the one attack at double strength, or does it reduce only the non-hammer attacks? The line about excluding hammer is part of the previous sentance which does classify hammer as counting in close combat attacks, while the later sentances are part of an "additionally" clause.

 

And another, can a model using a grenade as a melee weapon, as per page 180, make hammer of wrath attacks on the same turn they used a grenade as a melee weapon in the assault phase? Actually seems clear cut that you don't get hammer if you want to use grenades in that same fight sub-phase. 

[Purajh]

This may help clear it up.

 

The Lasher Tendrils in the CSM Codex on page 68 read as stated.

 

"Every set of Lasher Tendrils reduces the Attack Characteristics of every model (Friend or Foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they are in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative."

 

So it impacts the units base stat line and not the additional attacks granted by charging or special abilities.

 

I would interpret the above situation to not limit the Bikers attacks at all as his base attacks was already set to 1

[Guest]

This may help clear it up.

 

The Lasher Tendrils in the CSM Codex on page 68 read as stated.

 

"Every set of Lasher Tendrils reduces the Attack Characteristics of every model (Friend or Foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they are in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative."

 

So it impacts the units base stat line and not the additional attacks granted by charging or special abilities.

 

I would interpret the above situation to not limit the Bikers attacks at all as his base attacks was already set to 1

So, I don't have the CSM codex, I have the Khorne Daemonkin Codex. It reads as mostly as above, but with more clarity since the above was FAQed at one point. It also includes an example for clarity:

 

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristic of every model (friend or foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

 

For example, if a model is in base contact with two Maulerfiends, each of which has two sets of lasher tendrils, he has 4 fewer attacks.

Regarding bonuses to a characteristic, I don't see how bonuses get added after reducing. This is not different than adding or reducing strength, bonuses add to the characteristic, and penalities/reduction subtracts. That SM is base 1 attack, +1 for charge, +1 for hammer, for a total 3 attacks. Him being in base with the maulerfiend with two sets of lasher tendrils reduces this to 1 attack (3-2=1).

[spagunk]

Hammer of wrath is not a bonus to the attack characteristic to me. It is a separate action due to the unit type. It's like a special rule similar to overwatch so it does not modify the number of attacks you get for assault. It does not affect your base attack characteristic at all or the attack bonuses for charging as this occurs before your round of attacks.

[Guest]

Hammer of wrath is not a bonus to the attack characteristic to me. It is a separate action due to the unit type. It's like a special rule similar to overwatch so it does not modify the number of attacks you get for assault. It does not affect your base attack characteristic at all or the attack bonuses for charging as this occurs before your round of attacks.

Okay, ignoring hammer, how about the dual melee or bonus for charging. Can these bonuses be reduced, or are they not bonuses to the attacks characteristic?

[spagunk]

Okay, ignoring hammer, how about the dual melee or bonus for charging. Can these bonuses be reduced, or are they not bonuses to the attacks characteristic?

This, I'd have to look up how it is worded. Attack characteristic usually assumes the "A" value of a unit stat. So if you look at Dante's Attack characteristic, he has a base 4 attacks. This should reduce it to 3 (or 2 if using two of them) but doesn't remove his charge or 2x CCW bonus.  The net effect for multi attack units would be the same but for 1 attack units this won't make a difference. That's my take on it but I will have to see what the rulebook categorizes bonus attacks for charging/CCW are (do they modify attack characteristic or just add an additional die?)

[Guest]

The attacks characteristic is defined as the attacks the model has in the assault phase. I don't see why bonus attacks wouldn't be added to the attacks characteristic in the same manner as strength or toughness bonuses.

[AbusePuppy]

Charging, extra melee weapons, etc, all add a bonus to your Attacks characteristic and can thus be affected by Lasher Tendrils or other effects.

 

Hammer of Wrath cannot, because while it makes an attack, it does not change your Attacks characteristic. I had another post typed up that explained the idea better, but it got eaten. :\

[Purajh]

Here is my take on this

 

BRB pg 8 attacks (a) is defined as such "This shows the number of times a model attacks during close combat" it goes into more detail about how this characteristic can be different based on the model and such but that does not feed this question.

 

BRB pg 49 Number of attacks "each unit makes a number of attacks (a) as indicated on its characteristic profile, Plus the following Bonus attacks." It then goes on to detail the bonus attacks from charging, two weapon and Special rules.

 

So the bonus attacks are not considered part of the attacks characteristic on the profile. and as noted the special rule on the lasher tendrils only reduces the characteristic not the number of attacks.

[Guest]

Here is my take on this

 

BRB pg 8 attacks (a) is defined as such "This shows the number of times a model attacks during close combat" it goes into more detail about how this characteristic can be different based on the model and such but that does not feed this question.

 

BRB pg 49 Number of attacks "each unit makes a number of attacks (a) as indicated on its characteristic profile, Plus the following Bonus attacks." It then goes on to detail the bonus attacks from charging, two weapon and Special rules.

 

So the bonus attacks are not considered part of the attacks characteristic on the profile. and as noted the special rule on the lasher tendrils only reduces the characteristic not the number of attacks.

I do see that page 49 explanation, but I'm unclear why it would override page 8's description on modifiers to characteristics. Seems like a +1 attack for charging, would qualify as +1 to the attacks characteristic, just like a power axe adds +1 strength to the strength characteristic. 

 

Furthermore, page 8 specifically mentions that the attacks characteristic (and wounds characteristic) are the only characteristics allowed to be increased above 10, but I don't think that their are any models with an unmodified attacks characteristic of 11 or more, while it definitely can be done with bonuses like the +2 attacks for charging with rage, and so forth. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

If something reduces the str of an attack by half, do you make the marine str 2, and then add the bonus from the axe, or do you add the bonus from the axe and divide?

[WestRider]

If something reduces the str of an attack by half, do you make the marine str 2, and then add the bonus from the axe, or do you add the bonus from the axe and divide?

Multiply or divide first, then add or subtract. That one is actually covered on Pg.8. Multiple additions/subtractions without a limit are also clearly covered, but when there's a limit, it's unclear if you apply all modifiers and then treat the limit as a Set Value if you're past it, or apply the limit too each modifier in turn, in which case order of addition/subtraction makes a big difference.

 

 

I do see that page 49 explanation, but I'm unclear why it would override page 8's description on modifiers to characteristics. Seems like a +1 attack for charging, would qualify as +1 to the attacks characteristic, just like a power axe adds +1 strength to the strength characteristic. 

 

Furthermore, page 8 specifically mentions that the attacks characteristic (and wounds characteristic) are the only characteristics allowed to be increased above 10, but I don't think that their are any models with an unmodified attacks characteristic of 11 or more, while it definitely can be done with bonuses like the +2 attacks for charging with rage, and so forth. 

It overrides Pg.8's description because it explicitly puts those Attacks in a different category to those on the Profile. It says outright that they are in addition to the number on the profile, not that they are a modifier to the profile.

 

There are other modifiers to Attacks that do explicitly increase the Profile, such as the Arch-Slaughterer Warlord Trait or option 4 on the Blood Tithe table, or the Kastelan Robots' Conqueror Protocol.

[Guest]

It overrides Pg.8's description because it explicitly puts those Attacks in a different category to those on the Profile. It says outright that they are in addition to the number on the profile, not that they are a modifier to the profile.

 

There are other modifiers to Attacks that do explicitly increase the Profile, such as the Arch-Slaughterer Warlord Trait or option 4 on the Blood Tithe table, or the Kastelan Robots' Conqueror Protocol.

Hmmm....Seems like a strange way to do it. By that logic, does, for example, hammerhand affect your strength characteristic for the purposes of characteristic tests? Or, since it doesn't specifically adjust the characteristic, does it only modify the strength for the purposes of weapons with a strength of the user? Furious charge does specifically adjust the characteristic, while hammerhand does not. 

 

On the list, just from the BRB, we have charges (and RAGE), Rampage, dual close combat weapons, counter attack, plus the attacks characteristic. Even with a base attack value of 1, I could get 7 attacks out of a single model (+2 with rage on the carge, +1 for two weapons, +d3 for rampage, and base 1, giving a total 4-7 attacks). And that doesn't include hammer of wrath. And your really think the intention of Lasher Tendrils is that they can't reduce these 7(+hammer) attacks because he's only got 1 base attack? Sounds fishy.

[WestRider]

I can't speak to whether or not that was the intention. As far as what the designers actually wrote in the book, tho, there's a clear distinction.

 

It should be noted that there are other cases where the distinction is not nearly as clear, like Daemon Weapons.

 

I do find it odd that they make this distinction only for one stat, but I admittedly can't think of any other stat where the distinction would make as much sense.

 

I've actually wondered on a number of occasions whether Characteristic Tests were in general supposed to use the modified value or the value printed on the datasheet. The wording is unclear, and I can see potential arguments for both sides. It's an issue for things like Web Guns, too.

[Guest]

I've been under the impression that we switched from having a system where there was a difference between the base value and the final value for characteristic tests. That's why bikes are T5 instead T4(5) like in earlier editions. Bikes would test characteristics on T5, even if the model is still a T4 space marine. 

 

The exception, as I see it, applies in the shooting or assault, where modifiers are applied that only last for that phase. For example, a 2x strength weapon only modifies the strength for attacks with that weapon. I'm Under the impression that the intention is that the dual melee bonus is a bonus to your attacks, but only applies in that assault sub-phase and isn't really a formal modifier to your attacks characteristic in other phases. While a bonus to the attacks characteristic, would apply in every phase, even if most units can't apply it to other phases (tyranids used to have weapons that shot as their attacks characteristic).

 

Reading lasher tendrils, it definitely seems like the intention would be to reduce the target in base contact, to a minimum of 1 attack. I can agree that hammer and other out of sequence attacks are probably not intended, but still seems like charge attacks should apply.

 

Anyway, this point is now an RAI debate, as we seem to have exhausted the RAW availible on this one. I'll leave it for now. 

 

Within the above topic, can a model use both hammer of wrath and swap all their attacks to use a grenade as a melee weapon, in the same fight sub-phase? Or does the model have to choose between hammer and grenades?

[AbusePuppy]

You can use your HoW and still go in with a grenade, yes.

[Guest]

You can use your HoW and still go in with a grenade, yes.

Can you find rules that support this? I can find rules against it....

 

So in grenades, page 180, it clearly states

 

A model can use such a grenade as a Melee Weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses.

Meanwhile, Hammer of Wrath, page 165, clearly describes itself as an attack. And to confirm that hammer of wrath is an attack, the rules for Smash, page 171, start with

 

All of the close combat attack, except hammer of wrath attacks, of a model with this special rule....

which clearly confirms that hammer of wrath is considered a close combat attack.

[spagunk]

This still goes back to what hammer of wrath actually is. Must like overwatch, it's a specific extra attack that is initiated prior to close combat. So you initiate a hammer of wrath, which specifically is stated as a close combat attack that uses the models base strength with no AP value, which happens before initiative attacks. On your model's initiative, you then have your usual close combat attacks using whatever weapon you choose (grenade, hand to hand, power weapon etc.)

 

I don't see how one excludes the other from what I understand regarding the order of attacks.

[Guest]

This still goes back to what hammer of wrath actually is. Must like overwatch, it's a specific extra attack that is initiated prior to close combat. So you initiate a hammer of wrath, which specifically is stated as a close combat attack that uses the models base strength with no AP value, which happens before initiative attacks. On your model's initiative, you then have your usual close combat attacks using whatever weapon you choose (grenade, hand to hand, power weapon etc.)

 

I don't see how one excludes the other from what I understand regarding the order of attacks.

Hammer of Wrath isn't "Prior to combat." It is a close combat attack resolved at initiative step 10. And yes, there are models an actual initiative characteristic of 10. 

 

Reading the rules, I would imagine that you'd declare what melee weapons you intended to use for a given model at the start of fight sub-phase (before initiative step 10). Models using grenades wouldn't be able to hammer.

[spagunk]

Hammer of Wrath isn't "Prior to combat." It is a close combat attack resolved at initiative step 10. And yes, there are models an actual initiative characteristic of 10. 

 

Reading the rules, I would imagine that you'd declare what melee weapons you intended to use for a given model at the start of fight sub-phase (before initiative step 10). Models using grenades wouldn't be able to hammer.

 

But hammer of wrath doesn't allow you to select melee weapons. So are you saying that if you use hammer of wrath, you can't ever use your power sword or power fist and must always use your normal strength? What about the servo arm on a techmarine? This is specifically an extra attack at initiative 1 which you would forfeit because you used your normal close combat attacks.

[Guest]

But hammer of wrath doesn't allow you to select melee weapons. So are you saying that if you use hammer of wrath, you can't ever use your power sword or power fist and must always use your normal strength? What about the servo arm on a techmarine? This is specifically an extra attack at initiative 1 which you would forfeit because you used your normal close combat attacks.

Wow, so first the servo arms don't do that anymore. They are fixed to instead of giving bonus attacks, they are just a specialist weapon now, just like a power fist, but they are ap1. This is in the errata if it isn't already in your codex. The change here is both good and bad. For BA, it does mean you can apply furious charge to your servo attacks. 

 

As for the use of hammer, no, you can freely mix hammer with fists or swords or servo arms, or any other melee weapon as normal. The issue here is that grenades specifically state that if you want to use them as a melee weapon (aka, use the melee weapon profile of the grenade), that you  have to trade all of your attacks, including bonuses, in order to make a single swing with a grenade as a melee weapon.

 

So, if you want to use a melta bomb or krak grenade in assault a against a vehicle, you can't, as far as I can tell, also use hammer of wrath. 

[spagunk]

Huh. Guess I've been using the servo-arm wrong for awhile then.

[pretre]

Yeah, servos are cool now. Especially cool since they are specialist weapons and grant a bonus attack if you have another SW.

[Guest]

Yeah, servos are cool now. Especially cool since they are specialist weapons and grant a bonus attack if you have another SW.

Sucks for IG, though, as they are now S6 melee weapons for models with base strength 3. Techmarine servitors too, are now much less impressive.