Sugarlessllama

6 hours ago, Spaceork said:

Or... Just follow me here, that's the kinda thing my play group is totally fine with. If the entire group is "That Guy" then everyone is not that guy anymore. 

Im inclined to think that's the way it works too. Although, as far as I can tell there is no difference between "slain", "removed" and losing it's last wound. I just like the idea of having some extra wounds in a high priority target.

Sure. What are the stats for the cherub? How many wounds does it have? What is the toughness value?

8 hours ago, Spaceork said:

So I take devastators with armorium cherubs and it seems like they are models for everything but moral.

My questions are; can you remove them do to shooting instead of a space marine? Also can you bring them back with apothecaries ability?

Rules As Written: I don't know.

Rules As Intended: Please don't be "That Guy". Please.

51 minutes ago, scottshoemaker said:

I'm quite cool with the quick fit poses.  For one thing they let you build an army core at a lower cost.  I'm with Ish on this one.  These "quick fit" models are still better than many companies regular offerings.  Once the more articulated models come out, mixing the two will help fill out those cores...

This. So much this. I hate assembling models. I absolutely hate it. If all my Space Marines came as solid one-piece single pose models I would be open to it. One of best units for me to paint was the Assault on Black Reach tactical squad. Snap fit, and single pose, I was able to assemble and paint them in an evening. Best. Thing. Ever.

And these Primaris Marines are almost as awesome. I was able to assemble and base coat a five model unit with a Lt. in an evening. And I think I will have the rest of them completed soon-ish.

So I am really looking forward to some more snap-fit offerings.  

4 minutes ago, WestRider said:

I'm not seeing Reivers or a Primaris Librarian in there anywhere. As far as I can tell, it only has the ones from Dark Imperium.

That is true. I thought that was what he was talking about. As for the data slates for the new hotness above, they should be included in the box if the New GW is to be believed. And I do believe them.

21 hours ago, Ish said:

Well, I guess this is also confirmation that a Codex: Space Marines is coming fairly soon as the Space Marine indices do not have datasheets for any of these new models.

 

The new Primaris Marines are in Imperial 1.

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:45 AM, Torg said:

Now that the new edition is dropped - and I have not played 40k in well over a year (maybe two) - I have picked up the new box (don't ask me why - I don't know lol).  The question for me begins, Where in the Portland region will folks be playing?... (ie. learning league).  Anyone looking to start something at Ordo game nights (tuesday... or sunday or ?).  I've changed jobs - now over to the WEST side... but similar hours.  I've slowly reshuffled my gaming time and It appears I will have time aside from the normal summer activities.

 

-d

I know Red Castle will be hosting 8th Edition focused play on Saturdays. I usually play there, and I fully intend on fielding my 40K for the foreseeable future.

I know GG runs stuff, but the players there tend to be tournament focused (even when they say "casual" it isn't). If this is something you are looking for, then I suggest GG. If you want things to be more lore focused and relaxed I would suggest RC or WoW.

Is the most fun I have ever had playing 40K.

I intend on using power levels for the foreseeable future.

Well, I still don't think it would be pointless. Even if the terrain didn't do anything, I would rather play on a table full of terrain instead of an empty table. The games are more cinematic, and exciting. Without terrain, it would be completely dull. Sure giving bonuses is nice, but I would rather think that the "point" of terrain is to make an exciting, dynamic, and cinematic game experience for both players.

I mean, that is why we paint models right? There are no rules buffs for a fully painted army. My Space Marines don't get bonuses of any sort for being painted and based. Rules-wise, they are the same no matter how they are painted, or even if they are bare plastic. However, I think the game is more enjoyable when both armies are fully painted. And I think a lot of people agree which is why so many people paint their armies (even if they hate painting; myself included). 

Remember, the goal of the game is to win; the point of the game is to have fun.

34 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Do you come to the Ordo Fanaticus Terrain Days? Where we sit around and fix/make terrain? My point is that the vast majority of our terrain is pointless. It doesn't do anything anymore. All the hills, columns, huts, boxes, etc etc. are pretty much just eye candy now. They don't do anything. Either there has to be a long discussion about how certain things are set up in terrain formations or everything needs to be static based or whatever so it does something besides just sit there and look pretty on the table. And to give non infantry a cover save have to do something like add more visually blocking stuff, or columns and height to the stuff we have.

Well, if you are talking about wasted effort making terrain at the clubhouse than no, it is not "useless". Because there are games other than 40K being played by Ordo members. I know I have played quite a bit of AoS at the clubhouse and have used the terrain to great effect. And I am sure people playing Infinity, 9th Age, etc. all appreciate the effort put in during terrain days.

If you are talking about 40K exclusively; well there are still terrain rules in 8th. You just have to be in the terrain, or blocked by the terrain. So having using the terrain differently is not the same as nullifying it. I had unit hiding in ruins all weekend during my games. In fact, it encouraged the use of more terrain. Which was a delight.

So no, I don't think terrain is moot in the new edition.

This is the weirdest conversation I have had about the new edition. I really get the feeling the OP is reaching to find negative things to say about the new edition. And it hasn't even been out a week yet.

I don't know what the tournament scene is going to look like for you dude. However, I am pretty sure that there will be tournaments. And at these tournaments there will be terrain, and people with cheezy armies that going to going to mini/max like crazy. Just like it ever was. So don't worry.

You got this.

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

No it doesn't. you have to be IN a piece of terrain AND 50% obscured to gain a cover save bonus. if you aren't completely inside a piece of terrain you can't get a cover save bonus.

Infantry do not have to be 50% covered. Only non-infantry have to meet both requirements.

According to the rules, objectives are placed first, and then sides are picked.

Also, why are players moving terrain? Terrain should be placed by the TO and remain stationary.

4 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

This isn't warmachine. The sides and first turn aren't chosen like that. 

I understand that. However, there still needs to be thought put towards deployment.

26 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

 

Second. The table needs to be equalized in match/tournament play.

 

Actually, it needs to be the opposite. I ran into this a lot when organizing Warmachine tournaments. In Warmachine one person picks table side, and the other can go first. If the terrain is mirrored, than there is no reason to give up first turn to pick deployment zone. Or in the case of this new edition of 40K, there is no thought to deployment. Just pick a side. It doesn't matter, there isn't a good reason to give up first turn.

Part of the skill to be shown in this game is the ability to not only capitalize on terrain, but to overcome it as well. Otherwise, you might as well save a ton of money and play Risk, or Chess.

In tournaments, every decision should matter. That includes deployment, and turn order.

I think in many way drop pods got better in 8th. Since the player that finishes setting up first has the choice of first turn, I think mechanics that allow you to deploy small are going to be very powerful in this edition.

Only an hour until my first game of the new edition! Score!

48 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I'm so glad you guys are trying to ruin the new 40K before its even out. That is just commitment there.

I know right?!

42 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

Just fyi, this has happened with literally every edition

We all know that the haters got to hate; especially on the internet. But that doesn't mean it doesn't get old every single time.

I know for me personally, I have been super excited for a lot of the changes. And it has been exhausting to see a number of people just wallowing in their seas of sadness, in a weird attempt to be a wet blanket. I don't get it, and frankly, I'm over it.

6 hours ago, Munkie said:

A small counter-point:

While the insight of high profile competitive players certainly holds weight when deciding the high level competitive value of an army, highly competitive players tend to exaggerate the flaws of an army too.

"X is great, X-1 is unplayable."

While slight differences become huge at top tables and lead to that sort of binary thinking, it has little value for casual to semi-competitive gamers, IMO.

I was told for years that 4th edition tau were "unplayable" and I loved them in 4th and 5th. I won more than I lost too. Then they got their 6th edition book and god I hated it. Sooooo boring. Competitive, sure, but if you wanted your opponent to have fun too, then Tau are not the army for you.

It's just weird to me when people flip out that their army isn't high end competitive. I know the difference between me winning a big tournament and not has waaay more to do with my skills than it does my army's relative competitive value. 

Play what you like, and play the hell out of it. The rest will sort itself out. 

This. So much this.

Personally, I have found competitive 40K players to be kind of lazy. And what I mean by that, is that they lean too much on their army rules being out of balance rather than on their skill as a player. When the top tables are all, "the meta" as can be found on a netlist, I don't consider than excellent play on their part.

I came to 40K from Warmachine. I played competitive Warmachine for 10 years. And the "meta" in Warmachine revolved around play design and not factions. Heavy 'Jacks, or infantry would be "the meta", not Protectorate, or Khador. And the last year I went to Lock & Load, the World Championship was won by a Cygnar player, and Cygnar was the "weakest" faction at the time. The top tables always had the same few players, and the same players rarely, if ever, changed factions. Wil Pagani is a Circle player. And was considered by many to be the best player in the world before he got hired by the PP design team. 

But 40K doesn't really track the best players. Because it tracks the most broken book. It kind of doesn't matter who is rolling the dice when the outcome has been decided by the match making most of the time. That is not skill, that is paying to win. 

I am hoping that 8th edition will fix it. Hitting the hard reset on WFB and turning it into AoS has done great things for their comp scene IMHO. I think it really brought back a level of skill based play that was missing from that game for a long time. 

In other words: play what you want.

So, that's my two cents. 

16 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

I'm not your friend, buddy!

I'm not your buddy, chum!

10 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

I'm not your guy, pal!

I'm not your pal, friend!

24 minutes ago, spagunk said:

Responses in red.

I am sorry that you feel like I am writing you off. That is not my intention. However, it is clear that we view the game very differently. I am a long time WFB player, and so I lived through the shift to AoS. To call the shift from WFB to AoS a "meta shift" would be incorrect. A whole new game was created, with very different core mechanics.

Almost the same thing has happened to 40K.

So for me, this isn't my first rodeo. And so for me, things are looking great. For you things are looking grim. And I don't know what to tell you. But last time this happened, I allowed the negativity of the community to get me down, before I even had a chance to put models on the table. And I refuse to allow it to happen to me again.

And so, we are at an impasse. And we will have to agree to disagree.

Have fun. :D

5 hours ago, spagunk said:

They are amazing, just not in the rules department. .

Look, I already know the whole meta shifts due to the new edition. I FRIGGIN GET THAT. However I have been watching very keenly on the various armies and have noticed that a lot of armies had received compensation for removal of old traits. My whole point though is that BA were specifically short changed on that aspect and received a pretty mediocre compensation mechanism. We were never top tier through 6th and 7th edition. Far from it as BA were considered basically only a bit better than Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar. So instead of buffing us a bit, they nerf us even more? That's just not fair at all.

I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition. All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch. Why am I sinking points into a priest, a chaplain and a librarian just to get a single unit to have a good chance at killing anything? Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition? Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?) Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?

On the flip side, I think Sanguinary guard are about where they need to be. That was a single example of something good they did. The only negative is that they have only a very narrow window of effectiveness: Too pricey for horde clearing and too squishy for hunting MC equivalent. I think they are probably going to be terminator hunters and lower wound characters. If you do throw them at multi-woulds, you absolutely have to get the charge in as it is a bit too easy to circumvent a 2+ save (intentional, I know) nowadays. I definitely see sticking a libby in there or having them spear head an assault with a Libby dread in tow for a nice 4+ Inv save.

 Well, I am sorry that you feel so "meh" about Blood Angels. But you say that the stats prove otherwise, and I wonder what it is you are looking at. I look at them and I see a powerhouse faction on the table. Here is why:

1. This edition is very, very different than every other edition you have played. Which means that everything that can before you have to forget. I am not being facetious here. You really have to view this edition of the game in a vacuum. This IS NOT a meta shift. A new codex is a meta shift. A new FAQ is a meta shift. A new faction is a meta shift. The entire game got reset. And it is a hard reset.
2. "Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?" You aren't. You are thinking "How can I shoot planes down". First, everything can shoot at planes now. Most units just have a -1 to hit rolls for doing so. But guess what! Anything with FLY as a keyword can Charge fliers and lock them in combat. Yeah. You can lock fliers in combat. And you know what has the FLY keyword? Jump Packs. What faction has jump packs on everything? Blood Angels. So now DC can charge Helldrakes. Yeah.
3. "Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?)" Well he has Chapter Master which gives re-rolls to hit for all BA models within "6. That is a big buff. He has a Death Mask which is -1 to Leadership to all enemy models within 3", which is effectively adding an additional casualty to all enemy units every morale phase. That is huge. And his weapons are pretty strong. So, he is still awesome. As for Strategic Genius, this did what? Granted an additional warlord trait? Which was kind of a double re-roll on the traits table? Well, as for warlord traits, you can just pick the one you want. It isn't random anymore. Just pick it.
4. "All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch." So, in this edition of the game Charging does not grant an additional attack. Except for DC. They come stock with Chainswords, which grants an additional attack. Additional attacks are pretty rare niche in this edition. And DC get two of them stock. That is huge.
5. "Why am I sinking points into a priest,...." Every Space Marine faction gets an apothecary that heals wounds. The Blood Angel variety, does that AND increases strength. Not +1 strength, but Increases. That means it is added BEFORE multipliers. So a DC with a TH hits at strength 10, not 9. And given the simplified wounding system that is HUGE! For example. Old DC w/ TH using the new wound chart, wound Plague Marines on 3 (S9 v T5. S9 is not double T5, and so they wound on 3.) But now with the Sang Priest they wound on 2 (S10 v T5 = 2xT -> 2 to wound).
6. In 7th Edition DC charging a Blood Thirster would have a hard time. First, since the Blood Thirster has WS 10, the DC would be hitting on 5s. Under the new system they hit on 3s. Under the old system, the Blood Thirster would go first, even if the DC charged. In the new system, the DC go first. And they are hitting hard.
7. " Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? " The Baal Predator has three weapon systems (before upgrades) and can shoot at three different things. And it can shoot and advance.
8. " Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition?" Deathstars are things like Tau-dar, or Super-Friends where you had a Frankenarmy of four different factions across five different supplements slapped together to make something unfun. You are describing a Blood Angels army fielding Death Company, A Sanguinary Priest, Astorath, and Dante. All of them are BA characters. And they were all in use before.
9. "I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition" So, to mention their virtues again: They can deepstrike without reserve rolls or scatter, and they can charge out of deepstrike. They get an axtra attack when they charge (which is rare) They come stock with pistols and chainswords (chainswords also grant an additional attack). This means that when they charge out of deepstrike, they can get like 4 attacks each. And then, when they are locked in combat they can shoot their pistols, and then swing with their chainswords for 3 attacks each (4 if you include the pistol shots). And they have a Super Feel No Pain. And not only is this FnP very rare in this new version of the game, but it is better because you always get it (regardless of the strength of the attack), and you also get it against Mortal Wounds (and Mortal Wounds usually bypass ALL saves.). And all of this is before you add in auras from supporting characters.  In other words, they have a really good chance of killing stuff without any additional support.

Brosef, I don't know what it is you want. Like I said, I see these rules, and I look over the new game mechanics, and I say "wow, Blood Angels are really strong". I don't know what it is you are seeing. I don't know how many games of 8th edition you have played. Maybe you have played 100 games of the new edition, and you used DC every single time and they get evaporated. And if so, I'm sorry.

However, I am going to go on a limb that you haven't played that many matches of the new edition, if any. I am going to say to you this: try your Blood Angels out using the new rules before you wallow in your sea of disappointment. Seriously. I'm going to guess that it is going to take like 10 or 15 matches with the new rules fore you can say definitively that they have been "nerfed" or "hosed".

I say this because it was a long time of using my Dwarfs in Age of Sigmar before I figured out "whoa, they are pretty strong". Until that time, I was a sad panda. So please, just slow your roll brochacho. Don't set yourself up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of sadness.

Or do.

It's your choice dude.

35 minutes ago, spagunk said:

None of this seems to relay much thought into how the army actually works. Besides, they used to ignore wounds on a 5+ before, they already had +1 Str from furious charge AND got +1 WS with priests. Jump packs were already there, albeit not as "super" as they are now. We also already had those weapon options with the exception that now we can get them on dev squads (if you can actually get them in range properly).

I just don't see much thought into them other than "let's make them an aura army" without understanding what made BA actually good: Fast, hard strikes right into the enemies face.

• Sure, they had a FnP before. However, FnP is gone. No Mas. Finito. And so having a 6+ to ignore wounds, including Mortal Wounds is great. It is also very rare.
• WS is gone. They always hit on a 3. Which is more than they hit before.
• Jump packs are really good now.
  • First they allow a unit to "deep strike" without scatter. Which is great.
  • Since they aren't deployed, you are more likely to have first turn, since the player who deploys first gets first turn.
  • They get the FLY keyword, so they can charge Fliers. Like Helldrakes.
  • Units with the FLY keyword can fall back and still shoot. So they are really, really mobile.
  • You can charge out of deep strike. Yeah. You read that right.
  • You can also charge out of Rhinos. Yup.
• And They Shall Know No Fear makes the morale phase less of a concern.

Seriously, Blood Angels are awesome. You say you want fast, hard strikes, right into the face of your opponent. And you got it. That is what they do. They strike fast. They strike hard.
 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but what else do you want?

5 hours ago, spagunk said:

Speaking from someone with tons of BA, I just think they could have put a bit more thought into the army from the start. Why does my DC cost more than berzerkers again?

Well, they have way more weapons options, access to Sanguinary Priest which gives them an additional 1 S, and they access to jump packs (which gives them the FLY keyword, and super deployment, which is huge), and on a 6 they ignore wounds. I think they are pretty solid.