peter.cosgrove

the BCP registration is now up and running and the ticket purchase through OF store is also up and running. Still waiting on the ITC calendar update from FLG

Actually, that doesn't work. Because your version doesn't say, "The model's base cannot be moved through other model's bases.." Your version would still say that you cannot move through other models. It specifically says "other models" not "other model's bases"

yep, I was just in the middle of taking those two pictures. Thank you. Bear in mind, that MY contention, based on RAW, is that it cannot ALSO because it would be moving the jump pack and the dreadnought fist, which would be moving through other models, WHICH is what Paxmiles was talking about when he name&shamed me. If I was playing the landraider, I would not think I could fall back, If I was playing the DC/Dreadnaught and my opponent said they wanted to fall back, as has happened to me a few times competitive, I wouldn't argue. I WOULD chastise myself for not ensuring that I had enough movement left over to move a model directly behind the landraider to ensure that no possibility exists.

I believe I did. A model cannot move through other models. Obviously, that's a point of discussion. I am saying that to me, I feel that, RAW, a model is a model, not just a base.

a picture is worth a thousand words it's said.

Ok, I will take more pictures.

Umm.. wait, what?

Yes, the hull has to move through a base, the hull is OVER a base. wait, you mean, then no, it can fall back, I think.

yes, if it uses a full 10 .. wait.. let me get a ruler. yes, if it is still first tier modifying characteristics movement it can conceivably move to about 3" away.

Ok, in the picture below, specifically with both the Death Company bolter guy's jump pack and the Dreadnaught power fist "locking" in the land raider inside their own base diameter, can it still fall back in the direction indicated. If so, why? If not, why not? And honestly Pretre, you have been contending that it can, in fact, fall back from this specific scenario, because even though the landraider is starting movement over two bases, it can roll through those bases, through the power fist and jump pack, and the sponson's can roll through both models and their bases.

yes, that is true. Hold on, working on something.

Although, I have to tell you that very few people I have dealt with on a tournament floor would agree with you.

That would certainly help.

There's a period there, not a comma. "No part of the models base can be moved further than this. It" Is IT referring to A Model, as in the first sentence, or is IT referring to the model's base. Bear in mind the same paragraph says "It's datasheet" English comprehension would appear "It" is referring to "A model", which includes it's base.

Through, yes. But what about over? Bear in mind that the fall back movement doesn't have any other restrictions other than must end movement more than 1" away. The BRB says, however, "It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls..." How, exactly, in the brb, is the term "other models" applied? If a landraider cannot move through two terrain model walls because of it's sponson's, which are about 1" above the table space, wouldn't it also apply that it can't push those sponson's through an "other model" that is assembled according to the instructions without tipping, twisting, knocking it over? Is there a convention that agrees that only that portion of an "other model" that is over it's own base? Or is an "other model" only applied to it's base and not to the model itself. Because, RAW, it says "other models" it doesn't say "other model's bases" My contention is, exampled in the picture above, obviously the landraider can move away from the dreadnought, even though the landraider hull is over the base of the dreadnought, BECAUSE the landraider is not moving through any portion of the dreadnought model. The sticky part is whether or not, with the hull over the base of the model, can the landraider move through the power fist, most particularly a portion of the power fist that is inside the base diameter. My contention is that it cannot, because it would have to move through "other models"

Well, I will counter with a question. Given the above scenario, but assume that there are other models surrounding the landraider in such a fashion that the only clear movement path for a fall back is to move through the dreadnought's fist, and specifically a portion of the dreadnought's fist that is over it's own base, not the bit that isn't. Would that be considered a legal fall back movement? In other words, it must continue moving over the base but not touching it and in the process move/twist the dreadnought by moving the power fist.

My apologies. The original discussion point (my point) was referring specifically to those cases wherein a based model is trying to lock in a baseless model to prevent fall back movement.

I think you have simplified a bit too far for clarity. A unit that wishes to fall back is already within 1" And the fall back movement doesn't have as many restrictions as a normal movement. The only restriction is that the unit must end the fall back movement further than 1" from enemy models. The situation I continually find myself in is that even though a portion of the baseless model's hull passes OVER one of my model's bases it didn't pass through it, as the case may be. And to be more particular, what is the specific ruling wherein a portion of the hull is already overlapping the base of the model before the movement phase. So, I will preface the next bit by asking a question. Is the indicated direction a legal fall back if the land raider ends it's movement more than 1" away from the dreadnought? The hull is already over my base and the base is touching the landraider (It isn't actually if you look at the picture close enough, but assume that it is.)

While it is not as important with based models, because the base is the model, and as long as the base can move through, then the model can move through I believe that is what I typed.

I don't think I said anything particular regarding based models. Just the ramifications of baseless models.

While I agree, both with the beauty of the model and the convention, I would think that the kneeling space marine model should be considered as it is modeled but that's me thinking wysiwyg straight out of the kit.

The repulser can fly, so it doesn't matter on a fall back movement. As long as the model ends up more than 1" away the models attempting to surround it don't matter.

Did I get salty? My apologies, that was not my intention. As far as modeling for advantage I don't think that I think that way. In the past competitive 40k had a lot of techniques for modeling for advantage. And, especially in 7th ed, basing for advantage. In particular the system of scattering during deep strike. Since you could use the models and the bases that were purchased with it in the box, having a 25mm base on, for example, a jump pack unit meant more survivability that the newer models for the same unit that came with 32mm bases. In 8th edition however you want as large a base as you can get for many reasons. 8th edition has a much more clean system that does away with the competitive necessity for making sure that the models are put together in certain ways. This means that the modeling can be done as the kit assembly intends them to be assembled making for very beautiful models, especially with the newest lines of casts which are frankly gorgeous.

however, given the case of the tire, for example, if the tire is not low enough to impact against the base of the model that is surrounding it, then moving the vehicle past the base of the model, even given that the tire has to pass over the base, is evidently technically legal, and not one that I even bother to contend. It just means I need to place the models surrounding the baseless model more carefully to prevent a fall back movement.

It doesn't change anything. BRB states you cannot move through enemy models. If there are models surrounding a model, and in order to move the model the models surrounding the model have to be moved out of the way, then you can't fall back. While it is not as important with based models, because the base is the model, and as long as the base can move through, then the model can move through, a baseless model with sticky outy bits that when moved has to tip or knock over the models surrounding it in order to move makes placing the surrounding models a very careful endeavor. There have been enough times where I have thought I had a baseless model surrounded, preventing a fall back movement, when the baseless model could be moved. I have especially been faced with the rather odd contention that the baseless model, in order to move had to pass over the base of one of my models, but the baseless model, having no base, could do so because it doesn't have a base.