Tyranids are here!

[Munkie]

I always run missile crisis suits and a missile commander, all with target locks and 2 gun drones. So if a venomthrope needs to go, it'll be one of the up to 4 different targets that squad ignores the cover of. They're a fine unit but will rank a minor annoyance at best to tau.

[fluger]

Broadsides. Broadsides are kinda important.

 

And it's not just SMS; it's SMS and Serpent Shields and Ion Accelerators and Thunderfire Cannons and all those other, similar weapons that will vaporize your Venomthropes in a single volley.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Venomthrope is in no way a bad unit, but expecting it to live past the start of the enemy's shooting phase against a good firepower army is just silly. Sticking it in a building can help- although it's by no means guaranteed and there are ways to take advantage of that (like flamer templates), but on foot you will be hard-pressed to place it in a location that allows you to benefit significant portions of your army and also stay alive against the enemy's guns.

Oops, yeah, broadsides. 

 

In any event, yes, they can be killed easily by Tau if they are in SMS range and in the open.  That isn't a question, the advantage of doing it this way is to split up fire.  

 

@Munkie, yes, that's a great way to set up that unit, but not everyone does it that way.  

[fluger]

I always run missile crisis suits and a missile commander, all with target locks and 2 gun drones. So if a venomthrope needs to go, it'll be one of the up to 4 different targets that squad ignores the cover of. They're a fine unit but will rank a minor annoyance at best to tau.

 

Also, unless you are running an ethereal, this unit is susceptible to pinning since I can use Deathleaper to lower his Ld to at LEAST 9, and then The Horror hits at a Ld7 test.  Pretty decent odds of pinning it.  

 

Again, not a foolproof solution by any means, but it is an answer.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Horror requires first turn... problem is tau could remove all broodlords.

[PumpkinHead]

No, it just requires surviving to the Nids first turn.  If you place your broodlord in the "open" to die to tau shooting on their first turn, you deserve it.

[fluger]

Horror requires first turn... problem is tau could remove all broodlords.

More or less, but it also has a long range and one could hide the stealers as well if they don't have turn 1.  

[AbusePuppy]

No, it just requires surviving to the Nids first turn.  If you place your broodlord in the "open" to die to tau shooting on their first turn, you deserve it.

 

Even in cover, Tau will pulverize your T4/5+ unit pretty badly without really even trying. Heck, a unit of Kroot could probably do enough damage if they get into doubletap range.

 

For 130pts, the Broodlord setup is just too fragile. I'd rather be shooting Barbed Stranglers/Stranglethorn Cannons if I want to pin things.

 

And, again, to remind folks: an Ethereal can call Stubborn and make functionally the whole army Ld10 and ignoring modifiers. If a Venomthrope can cover the Tyranid army, you have to concede an Ethereal hitting the Tau one with twice the aura size.

[Munkie]

Also the PEN chip can grant stubborn, which is something else you never see Tau without. And even if they do get pinned, Tau can handle that better than any other army with markerlights bumping snap fires. Not a good situation certainly, but easier to deal with than any other pinned shooting army. Ah, so much armchair generalship. Makes my heart sing.

[intrizic]

We are probably setting the bar too high by using Tau as an example of 'why not'.  Let's focus on a more reasonable target, Chaos Space Marines.

[fluger]

Abuse, I'm not talking about being in cover, I'm talking about being out of LOS.  

 

And, yes, PEN can make them stubborn too, but, again, with Deathleaper, his leadership should be less, so even if they are stubborn, it might only be Ld8.  Better than a kick in the head.  

[fluger]

We are probably setting the bar too high by using Tau as an example of 'why not'.  Let's focus on a more reasonable target, Chaos Space Marines.

I know you are mostly kidding, but, I don't think anyone here ever suggested Nids didn't have a chance against CSM, it has mostly been two thoughts, sometimes concurrent.

 

1.  The Nid dex did not drastically improve lots of units that needed improving, and instead made arbitrary changes that had potentially damaging consequences.

 

2.  The Nid dex doesn't have the horsepower to go after the big baddies of 40k, the Tau, Eldar, and Taudar.  

[intrizic]

 

I know you are mostly kidding, but, I don't think anyone here ever suggested Nids didn't have a chance against CSM, it has mostly been two thoughts, sometimes concurrent.

 

1.  The Nid dex did not drastically improve lots of units that needed improving, and instead made arbitrary changes that had potentially damaging consequences.

 

2.  The Nid dex doesn't have the horsepower to go after the big baddies of 40k, the Tau, Eldar, and Taudar.  

 

:D, yes I mostly kidding, and I absolutely agree with both of your points, but I don't think there is a David build in the Nid codex to take on those Goliaths.  Let's just let bygones be bygones and focus on a more...reasonable expectation level, maybe we'll find gold there, or at least a less brutal test environment.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

The point is you can't hide from sms.

 

If you can pin buff comander squad that will really hurt.

[Last_Bullet]

If you can pin buff comander squad that will really hurt.

 

But the Mawloc can eat them and markerlight squads.  I am seeing more and more lists around the net.  The "must add" unit seems to be the Mawloc.

[intrizic]

pure armchair here:
 

my guess is that the Mawloc craze will pass and that it's just the current cycle of test lists coming out.  I feel the mawloc will prove to be too random to be reliable.

[PumpkinHead]

The downside with the Mawloc is that if it mishaps and goes into ongoing reserves can it deep strike again when re-entering the next turn?  People are playing that it can, but it is not explicitly stated. Also, once the mawloc comes up he is dead.  He can't fight, has no shooting, and if you are able to go tunnel again, it is an every other round S6 AP2 large blast.  I have my bets on the exocrine for damage output.

[WestRider]

Abuse, I'm not talking about being in cover, I'm talking about being out of LOS.  

The thing is, if you're out of LoS during their Shooting Phase, you're going to be out of LoS at the start of your Turn, when you need to have it to use Maledictions. If that were a Witchfire and the BroodLord had decent BS, it would be a different story, but as it is, it's a problem.

[fluger]

OMG, I hadn't considered that.  Fair enough.  :(  

[winterman]

pure armchair here:

 

my guess is that the Mawloc craze will pass and that it's just the current cycle of test lists coming out.  I feel the mawloc will prove to be too random to be reliable.

I dunno, I see the mawloc as more akin to Doom in a Pod.  It doesn't matter if its reliable (doom despite all his hype was not reliable), its still 140 points that your opponent cannot ignore.  Now, whether that means its worth taking 2-3 of them like many lists are at the moment depends on the type of list you are going for.  What I like about the mawlocs is that they can work well with an aggressive play style and with a more passive, 'play for the objectives end game' style.  Gives a player some options.

[intrizic]

I dunno, I see the mawloc as more akin to Doom in a Pod.  It doesn't matter if its reliable (doom despite all his hype was not reliable), its still 140 points that your opponent cannot ignore.  Now, whether that means its worth taking 2-3 of them like many lists are at the moment depends on the type of list you are going for.  What I like about the mawlocs is that they can work well with an aggressive play style and with a more passive, 'play for the objectives end game' style.  Gives a player some options.

That sounds like the voice of experience :D, which trumps my arm chair.  Thanks for the feedback.  I haven't had an opportunity to get any games in with nids yet. But I have been wracking me brains on lists.  The only list theory, pure armchair here, that I keep coming back to is threat overload.  I feel that if the list doesn't max out every FOC slot, it's wrong.  What's your take on that Mr. Winterman?

[Munkie]

:D, yes I mostly kidding, and I absolutely agree with both of your points, but I don't think there is a David build in the Nid codex to take on those Goliaths.  Let's just let bygones be bygones and focus on a more...reasonable expectation level, maybe we'll find gold there, or at least a less brutal test environment.

Let trygons be trygons, you mean. Jeez, talk about missed opPUNtunities!

[Munkie]

I will also accept opportuNIDties

[winterman]

That sounds like the voice of experience :D, which trumps my arm chair.  Thanks for the feedback.  I haven't had an opportunity to get any games in with nids yet. But I have been wracking me brains on lists.  The only list theory, pure armchair here, that I keep coming back to is threat overload.  I feel that if the list doesn't max out every FOC slot, it's wrong.  What's your take on that Mr. Winterman?

Well my experience with the new dex is limited to only one game -- and then theory and reading waaay too many forums.  I have also not played bugs much since March, so I have yet to face the current boogie-men with bugs in old or new dex (well my one game was against eldar but it was not your typical build). I am hoping that will change next week when I play in a 'everything is in' 3 game tourny.

 

So that said, I am leaning in a way similar to you -- threat overload.  The dataslate certainly encourages it.  All the point reductions help facilitate it.  So it is worth testing it out to me, especially when the cadgey 'win on turn 5' style that people are trying again Taudar is just not working -- these armies are getting picked apart at leisure.  What I haven't come up with is a list that I like that really does it without too much of the 'attack waves' effect (especially with what I own or can get ready quick enough).  What I am leaning towards though is using 2-3 mawlocs; an outflanking warrior brood or tervigon; the deathleaper assassins brood; 30+ stealers; and some fast attack choices.  Get a comms relay and now we have a pretty reliable way of getting 10-14 units within danger of assaulting on turn 2.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

But the Mawloc can eat them and markerlight squads. I am seeing more and more lists around the net. The "must add" unit seems to be the Mawloc.

Mawloc is only as good as your terrain. I play with a lot of ruins. My broadsides are on second and third level, mawloc can't do anything.

 

Mawloc can't reliably target multiwound modles that are t4 or better, because it is almost always a mishap. If I fail to wound once, against a broadside squad I mishap. Granted I don't want to be on the board.

 

On going reserves you roll again next turn so in theory you could just keep failing each turn and trying again, without your opponent able to do anything.

 

Mawloc works with the right terrain and you need to pick your targets carefully. It is a good choice but not an autopick.

[galahad911]

Mawloc is only as good as your terrain. I play with a lot of ruins. My broadsides are on second and third level, mawloc can't do anything.

 

Mawloc can't reliably target multiwound modles that are t4 or better, because it is almost always a mishap. If I fail to wound once, against a broadside squad I mishap. Granted I don't want to be on the board.

 

On going reserves you roll again next turn so in theory you could just keep failing each turn and trying again, without your opponent able to do anything.

 

Mawloc works with the right terrain and you need to pick your targets carefully. It is a good choice but not an autopick.

 

Ongoing Reserves

If a unit enters reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer

leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing

Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at

the start of their controlling player's following turn, but

otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves. If a unit is in

Ongoing Reserve when the game ends, it awards Victory Points

 

All of the broadsides being on different levels limits how many you can lose, but it doesn't make it so a mawloc can't do anything.

 

Blast Weapons

 

When firing a weapon with the Blast or large Blast type into a

ruin, declare which floor you are aiming at, and continue. Wounds

can only be allocated to models on the stated

level, starting with the closest model to the fi.ring unit.

Other models in the target unit that are on different levels

cannot have wounds from that shot allocated to them. If a Blast

or large Blast weapon scatters, it can still only hit models on

the level targeted, though this may be the corresponding level

of a nearby ruin. If there is no corresponding level, it instead

hits the highest level under the templare, and can only wound

models on that level. If the blast marker scatters to non-ruin, or

open terrain, resolve as normal.

as if it had been destroyed.