Munkie Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Okay so here's the latest version of the list: Lords: 500/625 500: Slann Mage-Priest w/ Soul of Stone, Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Mystery; Dispel Scroll; BSB, Skavenpelt Banner Core: 810/625 305: 25 Saurus w/ Spears, full command 305: 25 Saurus w/ Spears, full command 50: 10 Skinks 50: 10 Skinks 50: 10 Skinks 50: 10 Skinks Special: 590/1250 310: 20 Temple Guard w/ Full command 140: 4 Terradons 140: 4 Terradons Rare: 500/625 250: Ancient Stegadon w/ Sharpened horns 250: Ancient Stegadon w/ Sharpened horns Total: 2400 So this is the 2400 point list, which I rather like. I'm positive there will eventually be some changes to the list, but this is a good place to start I feel. In my area, though, we play 2500 and I am having a hell of a time figuring out what to do with those 100 points! 1. Add 1 kroxigor to 2 of the skink units. This would add str 7 to my army, which is currently capping at 6. Heavy cav does worry me a little for that reason. So, could be a good flanking unit if facing cavalry. Could also work to dissuade chaff hunters from trying to munch up my tasty skinks in CC. Plus Ld 7 is pretty nice for skinks. 2. Add skink priest w/ Lore of Beasts, Cube of Darkness. Gives me Wyslan's Wild Form without relying on the lore attribute for an early swap. Also, he would give me basically a second dispel scroll (with all my eggs in one basket, I worry about big spells blasting that unit apart). And then I could use Arcane Vassal and restrain pursuit as well. Man, I wish priests could ride terradons! 3. Drop a skink unit and grab a Scar-Vet. It never hurts to have a badass CC character. Maybe I would have enough chaff/hunters with just 3 units of skinks and 2 terradons...? 4. 2 Jungle Swarms and something else. Giving all lizardmen involved in their combat poison attacks is pretty nasty. Makes Predatory Fighters doubly nasty. Not sure what I'd spend the 30 points on though. TG or Slann I guess. As I've hit a brick wall, I'm open to other suggestions, but I'm not really willing to subtract much. Little help? Also, just some general questions for a born-again newb: -What's the consensus on 8th ed SCs? That don't seem too bad, and you pay appropriately. Mazdamundi is awesome but unatainable... Are they still taboo? -Are skink chiefs useless? They kinda look it... They're cheap but bad in CC and don't contribute Ld bumps. Am I missing something? -Can Slann really get magic weapons now?? I know they can't take armor since they're wizards but in their entry it just says they may take 100 points of items. I wouldn't ever do it, but it threw me for a loop. Thanks for your continued help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Unfortunately, the special characters subject is something that splits the crowd. I love special characters, believe they add extremely awesome things to the game, and should be encouraged to use in your armies. Other, however, don't share those same views and/or opinions and as such, more often than not, they aren't allowed to the majority of events I've been to. What are your thoughts on ripperdactyles? I think point-for-point they are great. I have yet to have a unit of terrordons give me any trouble (since 6th ed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJP Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 As I've hit a brick wall, I'm open to other suggestions, but I'm not really willing to subtract much. Little help? Also, just some general questions for a born-again newb: -What's the consensus on 8th ed SCs? That don't seem too bad, and you pay appropriately. Mazdamundi is awesome but unatainable... Are they still taboo? -Are skink chiefs useless? They kinda look it... They're cheap but bad in CC and don't contribute Ld bumps. Am I missing something? -Can Slann really get magic weapons now?? I know they can't take armor since they're wizards but in their entry it just says they may take 100 points of items. I wouldn't ever do it, but it threw me for a loop. Thanks for your continued help! I haven't seen a special character in the hardback books that I wouldn't play against. I like em. I want to run a Ride of the Dinosaurs with either Mazdamundi or Tetenhauin on a steg and as many big stompy critters as possible. Wait, aren't Chiefs ld 6 vs 5? I mean, still bad, but...single terradon riders maybe? No idea what to do with these guys. Well sure. I think they could get magic weapons before (the only restrictions are that models can't get magic armor unless they can get mundane armor), but why would you for one terrible attack? I give my chaos sorcerers magic weapons all the time, but they're obviously much better hand-to-hand combatants in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Cheifs: Cheap flying threat and they can get a decent save now. Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield, Charmed Shield are all useful here. So would something like the Egg of Quango. Between that and the Cheif's attacks, that should be enough to blatter a support unit. Other thought would be if one was running a Carno Vet or something. The cheif could take the champ challange, allowing the Vet and Carno to eat the unit. Pricey though. They're neat for a themed army, but I cannot see why one wouldn't want to dump all their hero points into Scar Vets. They're simply absurd for the cost. Munkie: See how testing goes. I suspect you're going to find 25 Saurus an odd size. Too big sometimes and too small other times. Plus all the fun Lizzie stuff is in Specials and you're way over the Core Tax requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 What are your thoughts on ripperdactyles? I think point-for-point they are great. I have yet to have a unit of terrordons give me any trouble (since 6th ed). I'm gonna give those guys a shot for sure. I think they look good for their points too. I went with terradons because I own them and used to like them quite a bit (especially in 7th). The drop rocks is really mean at crushing fast cav and skirmishers. Considering how much chaff I like to run, having the ability to quickly eliminate enemy chaff puts me in firm control of movement. That's the idea anyway. And rippers just don't do that. They're roll is way more one-dimensional Wait, aren't Chiefs ld 6 vs 5? I mean, still bad, but...single terradon riders maybe? No idea what to do with these guys. Well sure. I think they could get magic weapons before (the only restrictions are that models can't get magic armor unless they can get mundane armor), but why would you for one terrible attack? I give my chaos sorcerers magic weapons all the time, but they're obviously much better hand-to-hand combatants in the first place. Yeah, sorry, that wasn't very clear. His Ld is better, but not in a meaningful way. Kroxigors are better unit leaders than a hero choice? Pretty lame. Also, point for point, Ripperdactyls seem to give you more... Cheifs: Cheap flying threat and they can get a decent save now. Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield, Charmed Shield are all useful here. So would something like the Egg of Quango. Between that and the Cheif's attacks, that should be enough to blatter a support unit. Munkie: See how testing goes. I suspect you're going to find 25 Saurus an odd size. Too big sometimes and too small other times. Plus all the fun Lizzie stuff is in Specials and you're way over the Core Tax requirement. I suppose I can see the chief as an egg delivery. Though a random one-use-only item is always a risky play. Maybe I'll try it some time... Yeah I am way above the Core tax but I think lizzies use their core pretty well. 11 points for everything a saurus gives you seems pretty damn cool. I went with 25 so they could take a few losses on their way across the board and still get in with hopefully 3 rows of attacks. That's a lot of str 4. Think I should drop them down to free up points for a Scar Vet? I've got a battle tomorrow against WoC and I'm pretty stoked about it. Just gotta hammer out the final deets on this list... In other exciting news: I went to go rebuild all my terradons that shattered a while back and discovered that I own a couple of Salamander models I don't remember ever buying. Noice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well, I got to play my first battle with my Lizardmen since the year 8th came out. I had a blast! I lost pretty hard, but I had a hoot. I think we played about 4 turns and it was a slow game. We couldn't finish due to time constraints, but we got to the point where the dice rolls weren't necessary, my fate was sealed. I went with the Skink Priest+ Cube of Darkness option for my final 100 pts. Mercifully, my opponent suggested we play a pitched battle so I could just get used to the game without Watch Towers and what-have-yous. Rather than bore you with the details, I'll try to focus more on the areas I could improve and/or what I liked. That said, the dice were unkind to me at crucial times, and very generous to my opponent. I suppose that's what I deserve for neglecting fantasy for so long. Clearly, Sotek will need a few more sacrifices... Terrain/deployment: 9 Pieces was quite a lot! I'm not at all used to this part of the game as I mainly play with preset terrain. I'm glad I got to use rivers for aquatic and woods for my terradons. It gave me a perspective on how those things work. Woods aren't as safe as they once were for terradons! I realized pretty quickly that woods are cool but they still leave me plenty exposed. But I definitely screwed myself a bit with placement. I helped create choke points which ultimately made me split my less mobile forces. I wasn't able to create a cohesive line and it hurt. I think my army would do better with terrain at the edges of the board but a fairly open mid-field. Slann/Priest: Magic wasn't quite what I was expecting. I was thinking there would be more spells pushed through but it seems like the magic phase is more of like 2-3 spells attempted and maybe one goes through. Is that common? Regardless, I got to use my lore attribute to swap to Lore of Metal, and also got to fudge a miscast with Soul of Stone so I can't be too disappointed. But all of the moments where I really needed my magic, it didn't quite happen. The Priest failed his Cube of Darkness dispel so my opponent's skull crushers got +1 to hit and AP against my TG. It was here that we decided we oughta pack up. I had 14 TG and he had so many attacks hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s with no saves. It was gonna end poorly. Skink screens: I think, overall, I ran them a little aggressively. Actually, I don't think I move my blocks aggresively enough. It seemed my screens were getting exposed a turn before they ought to, and my blocks weren't in position to counter charge. In fact, the fleeing screens blocked my own charge at one point. I shouldn't be leaving that much space between the blocks and the screens. I rolled very sub par on poisons but I'm still satisfied with them. I had one unit of skinks in a river holding a flank by itself (yes, partially by virtue of my opponent figuring he had better things to do with his Chimera). But they had a fun time hurling javelins at all the light cav on the flanks! Saurus Blocks: My deployment took one out of the game, and an optimistic charge into a forest sealed the other one's fate, so I really short changed myself here. I charged 25 Saurus into a Chimera in some woods. I bumped myself to WS 6 with Hand of Glory, but I failed to drain magic against it's Lore of Metal buff. I also failed with 6 dice at powered up Wild Form. He got a generous thunderstomp and took too few wounds in return to give me the edge. I broke since I wasn't steadfast (durn forest), ran, and was chased down. Bad dice punished me for even putting myself in that situation in the first place. Terradons: Loved 'em! Vaped a unit of hounds on turn 1 and then went around harrassing folks. Fun stuff. Unfortunately, WoC don't have any juicy war machines for terradons to go pick on, hellcannon is too hurty. They'll work better on more delicate armies than WoC. Steggies: I had a blast with these guys, even though they both got a raw deal. My opponent went first, got a direct hit on one with the hell cannon and vaped it before I could move. Not a great start for me. The other one got to pepper some hounds with those rapid fire blow guns but one survived to go get in my way. Cool weapon, but very easy to hit on 7+. I like the idea of using it to keep chaff away though. But eventually he got to flank charge 6 Chaos trolls and did something like 11 wounds to them! They needed to snake eyes to stay, and damn if it wasn't Sotek staring up at me. So I got stuck in place, and got counter charged by 2 slaughterbeast chariots or whatever they're called. If they'd run like they ought to, I would've hit my opponent's Nurgle warrior unit with his BSB and lvl 4 Sorcerer. The unit had been dwindled and very well could have high-tailed it after a charge like that. Still, lots of fun here. Changes? I'm not sure if or how I'd change the list. I feel like I should play another 2 or 3 times before I make any significant changes. My first urge was to find a way to drop a saurus block while still meeting the min core. But since I screwed myself with both units, perhaps I should give them an honest shot before I cut them out. I may re-evaluate that final 100 pts I was struggling with, but failing that Cube of Darkness will do that. I'll think more on this one, but that Scar-Vet with halb, CO, Steg Hat, Luck Stone looks mighty tempting too. Will ponder this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 35 Saurus with FC plus the 4 skink units fills your core at 2400. That gives you back almost 200pts to play with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 At 2500, I could upgrade one skink unit to skirmishers... What to do with the points? Scar vet? Another dino of some sort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 One thing I have learned with several dozen games with lizards with their new book. Core tax is a lie: The answer IS more Saurus, and skinks. Toys and Frogs are bad buys. Monsters eat cannons. No matter how cool. Mon Cavalry are your bane: Bring Multi Attack Can openers. Magic Dominance is a lie : Bring 3 level 2 priests. Be satisfied with great signature spells. Combat Characters are a must: see multi attack can openers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 To answer your question about magic: There is no easy answer here. What I could do is point you towards a certain post I made awhile back. http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/19273-spell-casting-101/ I did a short write-up called spell-casting 101. Check it out, the worst thing that happens is that you gained nothing from the short read. What I can say about the Slann, they are just not the same casting machine they once were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 First of all, thanks for the link! I read it a few days ago but never got around to replying until now. @HeroZero, sorry man, that approach to the book just ain't me. I'm sure it's all very sound advice, but if I can't play with magic frogs and dinosaur toys, what the hell am I even doing with life?! That said, you did get me thinking on your point about monstrous cav, as I realized I lack for answers there. But I'll get to that in a second, here's the list: Lords: 525/625 525: Slann Mage-Priest w/ Soul of Stone, Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Mystery; Channeling Staff; BSB, Razor Standard Heroes: 242/625 152: Scar Vet w/ Halberd; Armor of Destiny; Cold One 90: Skink Priest w/ Dispel Scroll Core: 635/625 415: 35 Saurus w/ Spears, full command 50: 10 Skinks 50: 10 Skinks 50: 10 Skinks 70: 10 Skink Skirmishers w/ javelins & shields Special: 590/1250 310: 20 Temple Guard w/ Full command 140: 4 Terradons 140: 4 Terradons Rare: 500/625 250: Ancient Stegadon w/ Sharpened horns 250: Ancient Stegadon w/ Sharpened horns Total: 2500 I got to use this list tonight against Orcs and Goblins in the Blood and Glory mission. We used a modified version where you get a bonus 500 VPs if you get them to the breaking point, rather than it being an auto-win. I guess that's a common alteration? I like it better anyway. Here's my take aways from it: Terrain/Deployment: Less terrain than last game and I didn't just arbitrarily place things down like an idiot, I used pieces to anchor my flanks, etc. Big improvement there. Also, having the more consolidated list really helped with that battle line. My frontage was too big in that first battle and I just couldn't maneuver. My deployment was pretty standard. I had the 3 skinks in the front, blocks behind, with steggies on either side of the blocks. Terradons and skirmishers were on the flanks. Slann/Temple Guard So I went with what I call the "Channel Surfer" build for my Slann. 3 Channel Dice that succeed on a 5+ not too shabby, right? Well I didn't roll too well with it. I think I picked up two extra channel dice all game. Still interested to see how it plays out, so I'll probably run it again next week against DE. Regardless, the magic was much better this game. I killed 12 Savage Orc Biguns with 5++ talismanic tatoos with Fiery Convocation and swapped Soul Quench for Fireball for troll hunting (which I never ended up needing to use). Fun Stuff. The TG didn't get to do much but be a bunker. Their combat ability didn't prove to be necessary...but we'll get to that. The Razor Standard wasn't going to matter much against O&G but I wanted them to sink their teeth into something green and thrash it about. The Razor Standard, btw was my inclusion to help deal with monstrous cav. Doesn't multi-wound but more armor punching is always good. My volume of attacks should handle hordes. Priest/Skink Skirmishers: I liked this little unit! First of all, it solved the issue I had previously of where to put my priest. He doesn't fit with Saurus and he shouldn't be in a chaff unit. They stuck in a pond in my deployment zone (march distance from some woods) and had a good time. They finished off a wolf chariot and only lost 1 model all game! The skink priest even took an 'Ead Butt to the face but only took one wound :P Though I did realize it's risky having my dispel scroll on such a fragile dude. Character snipe spells can really open me up for the 6-dicers. If the Channel Surfer doesn't work out, I could just toss the scroll to my frog instead. Skinks: Used them a bit better this game, but my opponent also stopped them from being too much of a hassle pretty quickly. He blocked 2 units of skinks from moving more than an inch on turn 1, and then made 2 long charges on those units and took them out. The other blocked a charge by 6 trolls and drew out the fanatics. Scar-Vet/Saurus: In case you were wondering, 40 Night goblins with a baby shaman can't take on a block of 35 Saurus with a badass character. Nets be damned! The gobbos got a long charge off on a unit of skinks (needed an 11) and overran into the Saurus. He hoped to hold me in place for a turn or two, but the Saurus mulched 'em up pretty quick and they ran for it. The game ended with them rallied but about to take a follow up charge. The Scar Vet nobly threw himself on a mangler squig on the last turn but took no wounds due my opponent's poor rolling and my 4++. My only concern is where do I put this guy? Since he's on a Cold One, he doesn't get LOS! against anything. It seems like cannons and bolt throwers can pick him off super easily...thoughts? Terradons: Man did I blow it with these guys this game! One unit Vanguarded to a midfield forest and got nailed by a lucky first turn charge from a wolf chariot. They took 2 wounds off it but he had 5 war machines on the back line and they needed my attention. My plan was to dare the chariot to charge into woods, and drop rocks on it when it failed it's charge. It didn't work out that way though, and I've got nobody to blame but myself. The other unit had a similar plan against the boar chariot on the opposite flank, but instead, my poor angling on one of my skink units lead to a pursuit into this unit. They got charged by the boar chariot on the following turn and were, thusly, pulversized. Although it worked out to my benefit because of my... STEGGADONS!: These guys were hands down MVPs of the game! So the unit of Orcs with the Warboss that pursued into my terradons, were stuck in place for a flank charge from Steggie. And he mashed them up good. I think there were 4 and the Warboss left at the end of the game. The warboss only had 4 str 5 attacks so he was only doing about a wound per turn and I was gonna start directing attacks at him since I ground down the steadfast. He also pulped the unit of wolf riders that blocked my skinks from advancing. Didn't have to move and he was in short range so I gave the wolves the ol' double barruh'. Why does nobody talk about those blowguns?! Anyway, the other Steggadon was even more badass! He started off by failing a charges against a goblin character on a wolf (yeah, you better run!), but got to charge some trolls after that. A chance to redeem himself for the insanely courageous trolls of last week (grrr....) He stampeded through them and pursued into the savage orc big 'uns with the BSB and lvl 4 Shaman. Then he took 2 mangler squigs from the side and took only 2 wounds! His BSB made way to the stegadon, hoping to drag it down, but it hit and wounded with all 3 attacks and he was stomped into the dust. Then the unit broke and were ran down. We ended the game there, as he had only his warboss, 4 orcs, 3 fleeing trolls (about to get charged by the same steggadon), 1 mangler squig, and a fanatic still whizzing about. There were a few war machines in the back too, but his rock lobba and one of his doom divers blew up. I had a lot of fun this game, and I felt both my list, and my usage of it, had improved. I definitely had a pretty lucky game and my opponent was really hot or cold. His charges were awesome but anything that did a variable number of hits or wounds generally rolled really low. But luck aside, I felt like I had a little bit more control over the battle than the last game. Thanks for reading, and feel free to rip on my list above if'n you like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Pretty sure that's an illegal slann build. Having magic items+ magic standard. You are welcome for the advice, I would much rather see the scar vet on foot if at all possible. Great Weapons are your friend. Can you find the points for 4 more Saurus ?, a horde is a great thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Slann have an exception to usual rule of magic banner or magic items. They have exceptions to most rules it seems :P I could put the Scar-Vet on foot, but he'd be less of a powerhouse. I like the 1+/4++ and that just wouldn't be possible on foot. I think the best I could do with a great weapon is 3+ and that's pretty damn fragile in my mind. Still, I'll look into some different builds. Never tried a horde before but they seem kind of unwieldy. That's a lot of space to take up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 I ran two 60 man 25mm hordes in 2012. It's not at all unwieldy. The just accept the charge. The scar vets more fragile if he has no LoS.... You can get a 2+ on foot. Or you can listen very close. Magic items are generally a trap. Keep him cheap, and be happy with it. For the cost of all the gear you can get almost 5 more dudes or half of another character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 The change to the normal rules for breaking fortitude is more for event and/or tournaments. That is the worst mission, without the modification, for events and/or tournaments. You could lose on turn 1 (if you had your Slaan, who is also a BSB, and your other banner) if you miscast, got sucked in the warp, and killed the unit. You could also end up failing 2 leadership tests with a cavalry unit (brets) and lose 2 banners, a general, and possibly a bsb, if they run off the table. It's because of those random things in which this particular mission needs to be modified. With the modification, you still want to break your opponents fortitude first, but at the same time it allows you both to continue playing and capture more victory points. Question, how were you able to get 2 dispel scrolls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Question, how were you able to get 2 dispel scrolls? Simple, by cheating! That's what I get for posting lists late at night. There's no scroll on the Slann, it's a Channeling Staff (points are right, gear is wrong). Edited above Thanks for the clarification on the breaking point thing. I figured that was the case as it came from our fantasy guru in the area and it seemed like a good alteration. If for no other reason that, un-modified, you can stop part way through the battle which is lame. On the one hand, all my eggs are in one basket, but on the other, I pretty much can't lose unless that unit gets taken out. But I will usually lose without that unit anyway, I figure so I'm no worse off in that mission than any other. I ran two 60 man 25mm hordes in 2012. It's not at all unwieldy. The just accept the charge. The scar vets more fragile if he has no LoS.... You can get a 2+ on foot. Or you can listen very close. Magic items are generally a trap. Keep him cheap, and be happy with it. For the cost of all the gear you can get almost 5 more dudes or half of another character. Hordes seem unwieldy only in the sense that they'd get bottled up too easily. The last to games had choke points that 2 hordes could never fit through. Hordes seem good and all, but not at the cost of arriving piecemeal into the killing fields. At any rate, I don't have the models, nor the $$ to invest too much in fantasy right now. Trying to work with what I got which is 32 Saurus and 30ish TG. Hordes aren't on the menu in the near future but I would like to give them a shot at some point, even if just to cross it off my 8th ed bucket list. The rest of your post somewhat confuses me. I hope I haven't given you the impression that I'm brushing off your suggestions. I assure you I am listening (or reading) closely, but I think you and I have a different approach to the game, or at least the army. That said, I do appreciate contrary points of view, as it may open my eyes to something my fantasy ignorance has blinded me to. Then again, maybe I'm misinterpreting your intentions when you say "listen very close" but it comes across as fairly condescending... On the cost of gear comment, are your referring to all gear for all characters (magical and mundane) or just the magical gear on the Scar Vet? You mention a 2+ save on foot, but then appear to suggest not taking magic items. I can't do both. I can get a 2+ save with either a helmet+shield, Enchanted Shield, or that horribly overpriced 2+ magical armor, but either way I'd need magical gear. And barring the horribly overpriced 2+ armor, I couldn't also take a great weapon. Honestly, I'd probably stick with the Armor of Destiny and great weapon if on foot. 3+/4++ sounds better than 2+ armor. I might have to go that route though, because he just seems like cannon bait on a Cold One. It would free up 20ish points as well...enough for, say, upgrading one unit of terradons to ripperdactyls? I've been meaning to try them out... Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 That exact scenario happened to me at the OFCC. Bang, miscast, warp suck, fail invulnerable lose. Top of T1. First rolls of game. 20 minute round. I encourage this mission to go to the extra VP route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 That exact scenario happened to me at the OFCC. Bang, miscast, warp suck, fail invulnerable lose. Top of T1. First rolls of game. 20 minute round. I encourage this mission to go to the extra VP route. Yeah, when I attended the tournament in Salem we got hit wit hteh breaking point for the 3rd mission. I suggested the alternate method and the TO decided that was a good change and changed it on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Munkie: He meant the 2+ Look Out Sir when the Scar Vet is on foot in the unit, not a standard 2+ save. Scar Vets are good on their own, but it's the cheap magic items that really boost their utility IMO. Even at 150 with a full kit and a cold one they are crazy good for the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Yeah I thought the Scar Vet was the bee's knees! I just worry that he's too vulnerable to shooting on a Cold One, and too vulnerable to CC if on foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Can you get the steg helm on your scar vet? If you are worried about shooting: 1) screen him behind or on the side of a unit to grant hard cover (-2 to hit) 2) Stick him behind a Stegadon so it blocks LoS from a cannon ball to be placed in front of his base. By doing this, the only way he's hit is if the shot lands on him or the cannon ball does 6 wounds to the steg and boucnes through. 3) You should be able to screen the vet with skirmishing skinks. As a side note: If a TO awards x-amount of VP for breaking your opponents fortitude then the other player should receive half as many points if they are able to break your fortitude second. If not, then the first person to break fortitude pretty much wins still. 500 points is a huge swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 So I got to play against DE yesterday and I'm still trying to figure out what to make of the battle. My opponent had: Supreme Sorceress on Peggy Hero BSB on Cold One 20-25 black guard 9 CO knights 2 units of dark shards (13 and 14 I think) 3x 5 dark riders 5 Doomfire Warlocks 2x 5 shades Hydra 2x Bolt Thrower VERY mobile and very shooty list. I knew with 4 units of fast cav and 2 scouts, he was going to try to overwhelm my flanks. So I put my blocks in the center with a unit of skinks in front of each block, then I had each flank anchored with skinks in a pond on one side and skirmishers and priest in woods on the other side. My steggies were just inside each of those units, I figured Sotek's shotguns would be good at erasing all those fast cav units. Then I had my terradons behind my flanks. Luckily I got first turn and the first 2 went really well. I killed all of his warlocks with some lucky rocks from one terradon unit, and I killed 11 of 15 dark riders in 2 turns too. So I quickly got control of the movement of the game. I still had chaff and he did not. My opponent pushed up with both the black guard and the CO knights and I did the same with my blocks. Then the damndest thing happened. Once I got close with my blocks, he just swift reformed with both units and ran back just the way he'd come. He realized neither unit could realistically take on either of my blocks (I'd whittled his BG down to about 12 or so), so he didn't bother. While his reasoning was rock solid, it was incredibly anti-climactic. Not a single close combat happened throughout the game... In the end, I had only fully killed his doomfire warlocks and one unit of riders. He managed to kill my 3 skink units, both my terradons, and one stegadon (got a lucky -2 Toughness debuff and it still held on for almost an entire shooting phase). Other than not failing the the 2 charges I attempted that game, I'm not really sure what else I could've done. He didn't want to commit to combat, so it wasn't going to happen. It's as simple as that. So I lost, but not even remotely convincingly. But I don't know what I could possibly have done to make the game any different. If we rematch and he gets first turn, I probably WILL lose convincingly. He'll be able to blast a lot of my skinks off the board turn 1 and then I will again have no way to come to grips with him. I just don't see a way I will ever have a good fight against an army like this and that's kind of discouraging. Is it a problem with my list? A problem with my tactics? I don't see any problems, just an inescapable conclusion. If my opponent is faster than me and doesn't want to get caught, I can't catch him. If they have more shooting than me, I'm basically guaranteed to lose, because I have no way of leveraging my strengths. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Honestly you are working at two big disadvantages here. 1.) Your list is CC oriented, and slower. You have almost no hope of coming to grips with m9 models that have no interest in playing to your strengths. 2.) Your opponents list is essentially designed to abuse traditional lists like.yours. Without some list and tactics changes you are going to have rough time. What can you do? Include your own fast elements or more of them Increase your own longer range shooting Bring magic missiles Deploy aggressively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiccus Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yeah, one of the only reasons my list has done so well against that DE list is the fact that I have multiple fast combat units. Chimera, skullcrushers, chariots and flying bsb can all be used to either mulch his big blocks or chase down his light units. I had to change my list pretty extensively after he beat me the first time. Some speed could be what your list needs. Maybe even just 5 cold one knights, your character could hang out with these guys. if you have them running up the flank it could give his big points sinks of his BG and CO knights much fewer places to run to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 ...Is it a problem with my list? A problem with my tactics? I don't see any problems, just an inescapable conclusion. If my opponent is faster than me and doesn't want to get caught, I can't catch him. If they have more shooting than me, I'm basically guaranteed to lose, because I have no way of leveraging my strengths. Am I wrong? I will give you a quick example of how to deal with that type of army with your own. It's not the problem with your army. I believe it's the lack of experience against a fast MSU mobile army. Here's a simple solution, although it may take some practice at becoming proficient with it (even more so, if your opponent knows this tactic). You need to decide which section of the board you want to control. How do I do this, you may ask yourself? Easy, you know that he doesn't want to engage your army with most of his stuff. You now use this to your advantage. You have to split your army into 2 elements now: 1) You have to decide which units are going to move to engage the unit straight on. 2) Which units you will use as your "swing". By doing this, you are able to deploy blocks of infantry and possibly a Stegadon (preferrably in the middle of the two (that way he can counter charge for either block of infantry). You then send some more mobile elements on one single flank (yes, you need to overwhelm one side only. Now, after deployment, the goal is to leave him no room to deploy scouts on your flanks, or in the rear of your main line (be sure to measure out the distance to deny them scout placements). The next part, is a bit more tricky. You know they have all those vanguard moves. You know need to try and make it so that there aren't many options for them to move to. Units of 5 dark riders don't want to move towards blocks of infantry 1st turn, so you need to either make it so they use the vanguard to just move left or right, or that they can't sneak past your lines in the following movement phase. You do this again, by spreading out your units so they can't squeeze past. Yes, this will mean that more often than not that your skinks are going to be on a flank by themselves and potential targets for shooting. However, they now need to spend a turn of shooting before moving into prime positioning. Now, after the deployment is done, you will want to move your main force foward while "closing the door" with your "supporting" flank. When I say closing the door, picture a door closing. When the door shuts, you have no where to go. The ultimate goal is to use the supporting flank to swing shut and force the opponent into some rather unpleasant situations: 1) As you have half your army moving forward and the remiander of your army closing the door, your opponent should have to make some important movement decisions. Do they move towards your main line or start exposing their flanks while trying to deal with your door? 2) Since the majority of your shooting is on one flank, all that small unit size fast cav will be getting shot at as your supporting flank moves. If you have a Stegadon to help strengthen that supporting flank, now you have something to either charge with to force terror checks, start panicking some of their army, or just ot use as counter charges. 3) Once you have your opponent with that type of list pinned down somewhere, all that movement means nothing and they are now wasting the most valuable piece of the army. The movement. I will say, once you start to add flying monsters into the above equation, it's much more difficult to use this tactic. It's also harder to explain through posting a message. Hopefully, I will be able to meet you at a near future Sunday game night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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