wisetiger7 Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Where do you get the 'effects' part out of all that instead of the 'rule' part? The special rules cancel each other out, doesn't matter what the effects of those rules are as they are canceled at the name. You don't go into the effects, they are canceled out prior. Am I right to assume you believe that the unit no longer has the ASF or ASL rules if they are "cancelled out"? So what would happen if whatever is attributing the ASL rule is no longer there? They wouldn't get ASF back, according to your logic. RAW, they cancel each other out and neither applies. They don't LOSE the rules. GW has the grammar that defined the word 'lose' or a derivative of it. That is clear with the rule for Frenzy. The only clear definition of 'cancel' is that it doesn't apply, not that it is completely gone. Therefore, logically, if a unit has ASF and ASL, neither applies, but they don't lose the special rules, they just neither gain benefit nor detriment from them. Furthermore, a unit with ASF and ASL does not benefit from keeping these rules while not applying them. It is, in fact, a detriment to the enemy unit with ASF only. You may see that as a benefit for the unit with ASF and ASL, but regardless, the enemy unit does not get rerolls because your unit has the ASF rule, even though it doesn't apply its benefits. The enemy unit has the part of the rules that states if both units have ASF, then neither gets rerolls. Your ASF/ASL unit does not apply, but the enemy's rule still does apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 First off, I dont think a model can have the same special rule twice, therefor spells like bironas time warp would be redundant on elves and wouldn't stack with great weapons. Secondly, Im with Wisetiger on this. Models dont lose special rules unless it specifically states, like frenzy for example. When a model with ASF is equipped with a great weapon they benefit from both ASF and ASL, meaning they carry both rules. How else can you explain the +2S bonus without having ASL apply regardless of any other rules the model may have. Question is... simply. Do Dark Elf Dreadspears get rerolls against High Elf White lions. I would say NO, both models have the ASF rule. Hatred gives the DE the slight edge here giving them a reroll only in the first round.. Without it, how could the WL strike at I5 and be S6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Yes, dark elves without great weapons get to re-roll against white lions and swordsmasters. So far, you two are the only ones who seem to think otherwise. This has never been an issue in any game I've played. You ask, how could WL strike at I5 and be S6. Easy, the rule says so. Neither apply and the model strikes at their initiative value. They benefit from neither rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Its only because they have BOTH rules that they CANCEL each other out My point is that ASL is also tied to a +2 S bonus which needs to be considered. All THREE of those rules are in effect on a white lion that is why they get to strike at Initiative with a +2S bonus. Your saying they dont have any of those rules anymore due to the word cancel. I think you are wrong. I think cancel was referring to the effect, not the rule. Im just speaking freely. It really doesnt matter either way. I want to understand this because with the elven releases its come up a lot. This isnt a democracy and points of contention help us to understand everything a little better. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I just listened to Bad Dice Daily 359. Start at minute 1.48 to go. He rules a when there is ASL and ASF vs. a model with ASF. The ASF model goes first and re-rools if the initiative is equal or greater than his opponent. The ASF/ASL strikes at Initiative order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 not familiar with bad dice daily, is this some form of official podcast? would this interpretation be used within ordo events? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 not familiar with bad dice daily, is this some form of official podcast? would this interpretation be used within ordo events? He is not official GW, but he play tests the books for GW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 I just listened to Bad Dice Daily 359. Start at minute 1.48 to go. He rules a when there is ASL and ASF vs. a model with ASF. The ASF model goes first and re-rools if the initiative is equal or greater than his opponent. The ASF/ASL strikes at Initiative order. This is how it is ruled for the gts as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisetiger7 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Again, you never answered my question. If, by some circumstance, the unit with ASF and ASL loses ASL, do they get ASF back? And vice versa, if they lose ASF, do they get ASL back? There is no part in the rules that states when a unit loses one of the rules, they get the other back. Therefore, by your logic, if they have both rules, they lose both rules, permanently. So, let's say a unit with ASF runs into a Frost Phoenix. The Frosty give the unit ASL. Now they lose both rules? What happens when the Frost Phoenix is no longer there (ie. killed, or flees)? Are you saying that the unit doesn't get ASF back because their original ASF got cancelled out by the Frosty's ASL?!? That's ridiculous. No. The LOGICAL way is that they maintain both rules, but the effects cancel each other out. They don't lose the rules. Nowhere does it say they LOSE the rules. On top of that, what do you think happens if white lions (ASF and ASL) fight a Frost Phoenix with Blizzard Aura, that gives the white lions ASL again? Under your logic, the ASF and ASL cancel out, then the ASL from Blizzard Aura will make them strike last, no longer at Initiative. Yet the FAQs clearly state “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” Your logic is ultimately flawed, sir. Feel free to answer either of the underlined questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisetiger7 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 BTW this has been debated to death on Ulthuan.net ever since this edition came out (probably before that since High Elves have had ASF since at least 7th edition). I would consider Ulthuan the experts on this matter as High Elves have had to deal with it the longest, and even on here there is point of contention for both sides. It is important to take note of Rod's remarks (rdghuizing) as he is widely known as the most constant reliable source on rules (as well as anyone else in green). http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=45484&start=0 Also, this is kinda funny (please don't lend any weight to this): "the two cancel out and neither applies..." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cancel+out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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