HeroZero Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Thanks for the input MexicanNinja. I have been toying with the idea of 9 Black knights+ Wight king and a coven throne. What makes BK so bad? The banner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 they aren't "bad" just a common build that usually tends towards deathstar-esk buses. a few black knights with a wk for support would work well in the list your developing. the banner is needed for them to be effective as Calvary IMO (especially without blender vamps to do the heavy lifting) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm a bit tired if blender vamps. It's such a no.brainer choice. I hate when some builds are obviously the most potent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I whole heartedly agree that the typical blender vamp is "old" already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thanks for the input MexicanNinja. I have been toying with the idea of 9 Black knights+ Wight king and a coven throne. What makes BK so bad? The banner? It's not that the BK are bad. It's just the common delivery system for the triple mounted characters. You stick one of the most feared close combat machine in the game in the unit, and a combo of necros/vampires, and the unit either dies in one turn or is still alive at the end of the game. if you were to take BK and a WK I don't think it would be all that bad in your list. It's not the "norm". I tested the Coven Throne a few times. It's fun and can either go full support, full combat, or a mixed combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm still not sold on the CT. It's pricey and doesn't seem all that great, but looks fun. Which is the.perfect epitome of an OFCC model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm rocking the coven throne in my OFCC lists and have loved the way it's played for me so far and adds a LOT of visual WOW factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 It does bring a certain wow factor for sure! If well painted. I'm not in a terrible rush anyway, the core is still receiveing paint at the moment (omg so many skeletons) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 i attempted going skellies for my list but conceded that to be at least somewhat playable in my list I needed ghouls, ended up changing the entire theme of the army but I'm hopeful it will work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm still not sold on the CT. It's pricey and doesn't seem all that great, but looks fun. Which is the.perfect epitome of an OFCC model. Here's the problem with the CT: 1) It's not meant for competitive play 2) Once the roll of the character on the CT is figured out, it can be a good combo setter and still packs a punch in combat (lots of ASF, if I remember correctly, and high WS/S attacks). However, it won't have the same impact as say the kitted out combat lord of death and destruction on a steed in a unit of BK. Like you stated though, this would be an amazing piece for the OFCC and the model does look magnificant. It does take a lot of patience in learning though. The special ability is hit or miss. Although, when it works it is very frustrating for your opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah, regardless of what core choice you pick, bleeding combat resolution.is not unheard of. I hate double punishment crumble. Okay I get it I lost a combat, now I lose more? Come on. Yes i get they never break but in two turns 50 man units disappear a lot. I've come to the conclusion playing TK that you can never afford to lose a combat, so in comes those nasty combat machines like blender vamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah, regardless of what core choice you pick, bleeding combat resolution.is not unheard of. I hate double punishment crumble. Okay I get it I lost a combat, now I lose more? Come on. Yes i get they never break but in two turns 50 man units disappear a lot. I've come to the conclusion playing TK that you can never afford to lose a combat, so in comes those nasty combat machines like blender vamps. I fully agree with that statement. Unfortunately, for VC, you NEED those crazy character builds to backfill what the majority of the army lacks. The combat effectiveness to negate crumbling in mass quantities. You hit the point perfectly with the 50 man unit. After two turns, most opponents will know the outcome in the future rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah, I think Red Fury lords were added to the book as a last second stop gap to give units a way to offset the CR bleed every round. In my TK with significantly better skeletons I still lose 5-7 each round prior to crumbles. It's also been.my experience that adding more units to combats actually reduces success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Not to mention both units suffering from the crumble. Losing 5-9 models from one unit is bad on its own. It's just unfortunate that VC with the current book relies so heavily on characters for effectiveness. The only other answer I see, if you didn't go the blender vamp route, is to spam necro's and hope for superb magic phases to keeping the units up and running effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Tried the necro route. It's too dependant on a good phase every round. That's just unlikely. The only real answer is to off set losses with characters or never ever lose combats. Lol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm sure you know of this, but here's the cheap unit holder for VC: 10 skeletons with 2 cairn wraiths- you put them in ranks of 2 and stick the ethereals in the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Wraith Walls are pretty well known. Also pretty cheesy and not all that hard to beat. I'm pretty sure core is just meant to put bodies on table and hide casters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Wraith Walls are pretty well known. Also pretty cheesy and not all that hard to beat. I'm pretty sure core is just meant to put bodies on table and hide casters. Against the right, or wrong, opponent that wall could be hard to deal with. If they don't have any magic weapons, it only takes a few wounds to counter the fast crumble. Yes, core is meant for meat shields for casters. I guess the best choice for a core unit for nothing more than being used to hold a unit in place would be a unit of 25 zombies and then just get two IoN on it to increase the size. However, that will still crumble eventially. Special and Rare is what start to make the VC more reliable in close combat turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm pretty happy with core set up atm, I'm counting on characters and special units to do the heavy lifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm sure you know of this, but here's the cheap unit holder for VC: 10 skeletons with 2 cairn wraiths- you put them in ranks of 2 and stick the ethereals in the front. Please dont resort to this type of tactic. It wont do you any good if your hexwraiths arent helping anyway. VC and TK are some of the hardest armies to learn how to play in the game, plain and simple. First off, it doesnt mean you have to resort to cheeky tactics to cheese yourself into position or get wins, please, again, dont do the conga line thing. I feel like you are approaching the army all wrong. You are a great general and I know you are very knowledgeable about the game, but VC are very different. Winning a game doesnt mean you have to destroy everything in their army, you only need more points than they can get from you. VC has the best CHAFF and SUPPORT auras in the game. You really have to use patience, chaff, and the right synergy of hexes, buffs, and support auras to eliminate single units at a time. This doesnt mean piling on everything you have into one unit, its getting favorable combats while other threats are chaffed up by multiple small units that dont panic or flee. DEVO hasnt played in a while, but he has a couple VC armies that have always been very difficult to beat. He is a patient player that builds his armies with incredible balance. I remember a decent magic phase, a strong combat unit, plenty of support auras, bound spells, and incredible amounts of chaff. His armies were always sound while other VC players seem to be too aggressive, predictable, or leave out important unit choices to support what they have. I feel for you not wanting to do the typical thing... Id try getting some bat swarms and a corpse cart in there and Id play as reserved as my opponent would let me. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think VC are that hard to play. It's just a different learning curve. This army is much more forgiving than most when you make a minor to small mistake. There are many things VC players have at their disposal which harrass their opponents in many ways before having to deal with the large unbreakable units. All I was pointing out with the above statement is that the build is the common build for competitive play when trying to min max. However, in an army without hexwraiths a single unit of the 10 skeletons with 2 cairn wraiths isn't that cheesy when you could face three of those plus double hexwraith units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I have zero intention of running cheesey and weak sauce tactics like wraith walls and screamo lists. Im pretty happy with how it is shaping up as a list. Not having the majority of the cheese in my lists is something I've always taken pride in. I can't wait to field my favorite unit. EVER. In the OFCC. Okay, my favorite Units... I'm bringing 2 x 6 of them. Fear the vargheists. Feaaarrrr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Vargheists aren't bad. I've seen them used in a horde of 18 and that was pretty brutal. I just don't think most VC players know how to use them properly. They are quite devestating on the charge. I'm in no way encouraging or suggesting to you that you should use the ethereal screens. Like I've stated many times here, I love your list and what it is capable of doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I wouldn't care if they were awful because the models are cool. Which honestly is what warhammer ie about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 So revision.number 5? Strigoi Ghoul King Red Fury, Flying Horror Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem Level 1 Vampires General Master Necromancer Level 4 Vampires Dispel Scroll Wight King Great Weapon Nightshroud Battle Standard Bearer Necromancer Lvl 2 Vampires, Book of Arkhan 40 Skeletons Full Command 40 Crypt Ghouls 20 Zombies Standard, Musician 5 Dire Wolves 5 Dire Wolves 6 Vargheist 10 Black knights Full Command, Banner of the Barrows. 4 Fell Bats 5 Hexwraiths 5 Hexwraiths Varghulf. Here be fast VC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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