Escalating power level

[Wiccus]

So yesterday I played 3 different battles against Orcs. The first hardly counted because I essentially killed myself turn one with a dimensional cascade that killed my general, half of a 20 man warrior unit and made it so that my 6 trolls probably wouldn't do anything for the rest of the game. Then I failed a panic check on the left flank which saw my chariot run through my marauder cav and kill all of them as well as leave my left almost completely undefended. So we just started a new game after that. In that game as with the 3 games before my random horrible luck game, my list that I thought was a very solid list just fell apart. I don't claim to be the best general in the world but I am no noob either. In my 3rd game against Orcs yesterday (different player) I changed my list to come to grips with the things that had been killing me. I then proceeded to smash my opponent pretty handily even though he had a lot of what my previous opponent in the day had which I as a warriors player loathe such as doom divers, foot of gork and manglers as they rip though my army so easily.

 

You see our local power curve has been on a steep incline lately with the introduction of another player to our group. This player is a Dark Elf player that brings tons of fast cav with xbows, warlocks, a couple units of xbow shades, 20ish xbowmen, 4 bolt throwers and then a block of cold ones and blackguard with is lvl 4 on a pegasus. He gets behind you, debuffs and then mows a unit or more down per turn. Now I do not fault a player for bringing what is clearly in their book and I would never ask him to change his list as I believe people should play what they want to play. As a result of his success (he only has lost once out of like 11 games and that one was due to one incredibly lucky chain lightning that fried 5 of his small units) our local group has been altering our lists to be able to contend with the dark elves. As a result, games against my opponents from before the current dark elf crisis have become more and more challenging as all of our lists are getting more and more brutal. Here is an example of what my current list has evolved into.

 

Sorcerer Lord

MoT

lore of Tzeentch

lvl 4

Disk

Talisman of preservation

dispell scroll

third eye of Tzeentch

enchanted shield

 

Exalted Hero

MoN

BSB

dawnstone

scaled skin

shield

 

20 warriors

MoN

Halberds

shields

full command

banner of eternal flame

 

5 hounds

 

5 hounds

 

5 hounds

 

5 marauder cav

flails

javelins

MoS

 

Gorebeast chariot

MoN

 

Gorebeast chariot

MoN

 

Chimera

regen

 

Chimera

regen

 

3 Skullcrushers

ensorcelled weapons

musician

standard

 

3 Skullcrushers

ensorcelled weapons

musician

standard

 

Now other than the fact that I refuse to run a DP and use a lvl 4 instead, this list looks pretty similar to most WoC upper tier tournament lists. The thing is that I didn't even feel like a dirt bag running it due to it really being almost a necessity at this point. I am typically a person that likes to take sub optimal lists that one doesn't see online. I feel more gratified with a win when I beat my opponent with something I thought up rather than with what is the best list possible. Again, I would never complain to an opponent and tell them to change their list as I feel that they should be able to run what they want to run. But, how do I reconcile that with my overall wish to run mid tier lists that seem a great deal more interesting than what I currently am running?

 

I honestly don't exactly know what I am trying to say but it has been making me think quite a bit about my fantasy hobby. Has anyone had this problem before? If so what did you do about it? Did you keep running sub optimal lists until you got better? Did you adjust to the power curve as I have?

[Munkie]

I think the best thing to do is just be clear ahead of time what kind of game both parties are looking for. If you know you're playing someone who isn't gonna pull any punches, don't pull any yourself. If your opponent runs sub-optimal lists or a take-what-you've-got list, then scale it down. Historically, my worst gaming experiences is when I unknowingly waltzed into very lopsided battles. A short conversation beforehand eliminates that possibility.

 

Also, that item should henceforth be referred to as "Third Eye of Blind". Just saying.

[McNathanson]

I honestly believe the wrong turn you took was where you said, "People should play what they want to play."  I get your motivation and it's cool.

But really, no, some people need to be gently introduced to the idea that making sure his (or her) OPPONENT has a fun game is just as much his job as having a fun game himself is.  If he's somebody for whom the definition of fun is mowing down his opponent, then he needs to change that!  And if he can't, then he needs to find another group to play with.  That's just my hard-learned advice from years and years of competitive gaming… it's the concept that led to the inception of the OFCC.

Warhammer is not a game where it's easy to adjust up or down to match your opponent, because of the investment in building an army up.  And in many other ways, Warhammer is not a game that is conducive to competitive play.  Magic the Gathering is a great venue for venting your inner competitive nerd.  By contrast, Warhammer is a great venue to learn to enjoy your own army's successes, as well as your opponent's successes.

 

Don't adjust up, teach him how your group plays, and teach him to care about his opponent's enjoyment as much as his own!  It's your chance to save a nerd :)

As always with anything I write, just my 2 cents...

Nathan

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I think it is a icy surface to walk. I did leave other games be becuase the community became a nut bashing enviroment where a net list became a must to even think about playing. Then again limiting the community too much makes players feel like they are missing out on part of the game. This has been an issue since I started gaming and in about 10-12 different systems.

 

Munkie I believe has it right and you should talk to your opponents about what kind of power level they want to play. Also I personally believe a higher skilled player should be taking more challenging armies and lists to see what kind of generals they are instead of taking the best net list out there becuase they know how to crunch the numbers. But I am a minority there.

[generalripphook]

Personally i have no clue how to counter that dark elf army with my beastmen...i think better deployment strategies and running the rambull alone might help....maybe even the jaberslyth because it has fly

[Kremmet]

I'm not going to chime in on whether or not you should "ramp up" to fight competitiveness, but that Dark Elf list leaves much to be desired in my eyes.  I'm sure you see how his list is pulled hard into being about movement and shooting with basically no thoughts on preservation or protracted combat which can cause a problem if you've become used to a certain style of play.  I don't know enough about your meta to say for certain, but it sounds more like a broken malaise that has caused you to reconsider your lists.  With that in mind I think what you're really discussing is whether changing your list to fight something that skews your local meta is a good idea or not.  It definitely sucks in WHFB because of the model investment, but a major part of the game is encountering new win strategies and seeing how your list matches up.  

 

The question I'd be asking is if my list is really the problem or if I've just lost touch with the game mechanics/had a string of bad luck.

[MexicanNinja]

Honestly, with 2 chimera's and 2 units of skullcrushers, you really don't need the DP or level 4 tzeentch caster on a disc.  I play Dark Elves as well and have used many different things in the book.  Unfortunately, I just don't like how my blocks of infantry hold up.  I do however, understand that a mobile army is very hard to counter.  I don't use a level 4 though and I have ZERO bolt throwers in my army.  I actually rely on late turn combats to decide the ultimate outcome of most games.  I will say that there are many armies out there who do counter that specific Dark Elf list you mentioned:

 

1) Dwarfs

2) Lizardmen

3) Empire

4) Wood Elfs

 

You struggle simple because you lack shooting.  You have no way to deal with the mobile threats or the scouts because you have nothing to turn and shoot at them.  Lizardmen and Wood Elf armies could do the same with all the fast mobile shooting they have access to.  Certain Dwarf and Empire armies could have the same results on your list and they don't have the movement.  The right war machines used at the right times could easily pop the chimeras and/or skull crushers.  The mobile Dark Elf list is very brutal.  In fact, they can get worse with the following:

 

1) Dreadlord on dark steed

2) Level 4 on dark steed

3) BSB on Cold One

4) 2-3 Masters on Dark Steeds w/great weapons

 

I know it sucks to play that list with an army who just doesn't have the neccesary tools to deal with it.  However, in his defense I will add that you do have tools to deal with it, you just don't take them.  You have Hellcannons, and access to level 2 wizards with great spell choices.  You do have the double Chimera's, and those can threaten anything he has in his list.  Being that shades don't have poison attacks means they won't get many wounds through on the chimera.  I will also add that you can deal with that Dark Elf army with your own by controlling your deployment zone.  You can easily set up your army so his shades can't deply behind you or on your flanks.  You can also move your units is such a way that his fast cav have extremely limited movement selections.

 

Playing agianst the mobile Dark Elf list is an advanced learning curve, IMO, and that list is nothing what the old DE list had to offer.  Just be thankful that you don't have to face the unkillable Dreadlord any longer.