Just want to chat....

[Raak]

Here's a pertinent link if found:

The Anatomy of a Nerf - ToFs take on the 2+ Re-Rollable

[huggies01]

OH and if you think you can hide in Warhammer Fantasy Battle you're lying to yourself....these changes will come to that system as well

 

Damn on no he didn't. That's right fantasy whiney babies. Fantasy is so much better, waah wah cry cry boo boo. Is that what we do guys? When the goin gets tough we tuck tail and run to fantasy? Hell no. I agree with not giving gw money, however that is a system that will never work. We have to voice it some how. Now entering think mode.

[Wiccus]

Oh yes I am already terrified of it happening to fantasy. I haven't run back to fantasy because of all the absurdly whacky releases by GW for 40k lately. I ran back to fantasy because it has always interested me more than 40k. I have always been much more into swords and sorcery than I have been into lasers and aliens though both are awesome. Not to mention that I just overall find overcoming ones opponent in fantasy to be much more rewarding than doing so in 40k. I lost interest in 40k due to the fact that they made an army that I absolutely loved the play style of turn all of the sudden not very viable. My Daemons in 40k had been one of my most favorite gaming experiences in my life. I love close combat in just about everything ranging from books to movies to video games to my minis games. I love the big smashy dude closing with his opponent and absolutely crushing him, preferably with a bellow of absolute hatred and rage. That is how daemons used to play. Now daemons still essentially do the same thing but its 6th that is the problem.

 

Now there are so many incredibly mobile shooting armies out there which are the bane of my beloved daemons. I know 40k has always been a shooting game. Most of the damage and most decisive combat has always been decided at range throughout any version of 40k. In previous editions assault armies could come to grips with shooting armies and crush them assuming they could weather the storm. Now 6th has so many mobile armies that pack withering firepower that my warplings have a tough time of things. Not only is it a tough time but it is also a very unfun time for myself. Here is an example of how 70% to 80% of my 6th ed battles have gone so far.

 

Step #1 I surge forward, they relocate and shoot me.

Step #2 Next, I surge forward followed by them relocating and shooting me.

Step #3 I think I have them cornered and then they break out, relocate and shoot me.

Step #4 I die

 

It is just very uninteresting to play a game where I have very little to essentially no interaction with my opponent. We aren't locked in some epic back and forth battle trading blow for blow. No, I just sit there while my opponent rolls dice and then I remove my models. Not very interesting to me. About the only really good and fun battles I have had in 6th have been against nids due to the fact that we both close with each other and engage in epic melee combat.

 

Another thing that I hate though initially loved the idea of is allies. Armies used to have inherent weaknesses. This army is very good at shooting but will get annihilated in assault. This army has very limited shooting but will crush in assaults. This army is slow and static, this army is fast and maneuverable. Now if you are a slow and static shooting force with no decent melee you can all of the sudden patch over your weakness by picking up some nifty fast assault units. It just seems lame to me in terms of play and in terms of the unbelievability of it when it comes to the fluff. These Tau and Daemons are chilling together just for giggles. I guess I have just become very disenchanted by fantasy's younger, sexier and more modern brother. I have gone back to something that feels right and not stale. That is my opinion.

 

In terms of my thoughts on how the current meta is going then I will say that data slates and formations are super dumb for competitive play and should absolutely not be allowed in tournaments. Also I intend on tracking down the man that thought it should be okay to put super heavies in a normal 40k battle and skinning him alive.

[Raak]

This a nice whine session and all, but anyone have any idea how to fix this? The best I have done is emailed gw but of course no response. Maybe I will write my congressman.

 

I wrote GW once.  I asked who the heck would hold an order of dozens of models without shipping it merely because one warlord was not in stock.

 

They Replied.  ...Thanking me for my email. 3 weeks later my order arrived (3.5 weeks late with fed-ex priority, lol). Last email I sent to GW.

 

I'm not going to pretend like I can fix a system I barely even have the basics of mastered but I do know this:

 

I like playing 40k and I like learning WFB. I think Kevin hit it on the head when he mentioned that all this is really doing is widening the gap between different types of players. People who want to use Heavy D or crazy jacked Data Slates will do so and will eventually find that only other competitive gamers are potentially interested in matching their proposed army. Likewise for those favoring Narrative and ditto for those who aren't really passionate about either but simply want balanced play. The down side to this is that in insulating ourselves from GWs changes by breaking off into splinter groups (Fluffies, Compers, I-Dont-Care'ers) we have effectively lessened the pool of available players and match-ups by what I am sure is a fairly large order of magnitude. I believe Corey is right - this is eventually going to drive GW games into garage factions for better or worse.

 

A question: Would house rules be such a horrible thing as long as they were a verbal agreement between players lasting for the duration of that match? This is essentially a verbal contract when setting up the game.... XXXX pts, allies or not, number of codices that are OK (1, 2 or 2+), data slates or not, double force Org or not, etc etc.

 

I also really dig Jim's Idea of a way to advertize for games that reflects the desired gaming experience because I think that it will come down to that eventually; perhaps not in gamer groups but certainly for the WarHamsters and most other communities centered around a LGS.

[Raak]

Also - I suggest ingesting a lot of newbie salt with the above post but I am in no way responsible for your GW-Raised Blood Pressure or Cypher Contracted Cholesterol.

[dalmer]

Hello there,

 

Good thread to read.

 

My two cents, which is probably worth less than two cents considering how little I play in the local scene, is:

 

It's always good to have options.  I personally like a rule set that is broad and encompassing, allowing gamers to make the specifics, so to speak.  40k has lots of rules / codices / supplements / etc. but it seems to me that y'all have hit the proverbial nail on the head by doing it YOUR way.

 

Folks wanna run gaming sessions wherein rule sets x and y aren't allowed?  So be it.  At least folks know.  A tournament that allows d-weapons and gi-hugic thingiemabobbers?  Cool if that's what you wanna play.

 

The analogy to me is RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons / Pathfinder.  Sure there's a rule set and in some cases it's pretty fleshed-out and specific.  But for the most part the player base has a ton of options and can play it their way.

 

And options are better than being forced to play a certain way.  Back in the tournament days for me everywhere I went it was basically the same thing:  folks trying to get the best list with the best rules flexing / exploits / loopholes and duking it out.  Those of us that wanted thematics, storylines, etc. just ended up making our own gaming groups and playing it our way.

 

I've got a pretty good inkling in my head that if I ever wanna game down at Dark Tower Games with y'all I'm going to get this:  players that are helpful and friendly and who are interested in having a fun game with some kind of thematic storyline element.  Which is precisely how I wanna play, so thank goodness y'all exist.

 

Stay safe,

 

don

[generalripphook]

I say we just gather every gamer and just group hug GW until everyone just loves each other and we have no problems.

[Fix]

Holding my tongue until the guard codex comes out.

[sergentzimm]

Holding my tongue until the guard codex comes out.

Indeed. I am kind of holding back until I see my Ork book to play more.

[huggies01]

Don, I think I agree with you. I didn't look at it from that perspective. Maybe GW is simply putting out all of these sets and supplements as a toolbox for the tournament runners to choose which tools to build an event around. Maybe just maybe, they are that intelligent that they trust the Event Managers with creating a game in which a certain populace enjoys playing. Maybe?! Probably not but I can dream. But that seems to be the most logical explanation for the mass release of material. Apoc rules are out there but it is up to people to play by them. I don't think that because D weapons are apparently now allowed in some cases, that players will use those rule sets. Of course there is going to be whiney, female hygiene cleansing products of players who will try and argue that D weapons or superheavies are totally legit. Hell maybe it isn't even that bad of a thing at all. As long as the point cost is justified. This however doesn't explain the blatant overpricing and push to buy new models. 

 

And Joey I am on your side. Let it be known to all, I think fantasy is a far more tactical game that is also more solid on the rules. Hands down. But for many of us it was 40K that sparked our interest in table top gaming. Now there are three ways we can handle this as gamers. 1.) Accept the rules get more lube, bite on a stick and continue playing. 2.) Throw fits like a six year in K-Mart after we couldn't get the tickle me elmo doll and quit playing. 3.) Or do what arguably capitalist countries do the best, and not let one gaming company [big bad swear word] all over its customers. They make the rules but rules don't mean dick if we choose not to follow them. As far as the Demons go, I agree I can't stand sitting across the table pulling off my assault models while I have to stare at that disgusting [big bad swear word] eating grin on my opponents face because he thinks he is the superior tactician of his stupid TauDar army. (not you kevin) But that just means that it is all the more gratifying when I march 3 turns across the board, shrugging of wounds with those impeccable 5+ saves, Take over watches up the wazoo, fail the assault, get shot at next turn, take over watch again, finally get in combat going last because my models left their grenades in their other purses apparently, and then after all this if I am able to finally tear some face in close combat and I get to hear my opponent cry about how broken my unit is. But that is ok. That's why nobody sides on the side of the Persians in the battle of Thermopylae. 

 

Come back Joey. Take my hand and together we can put assault armies back on the map. Father and Son. 

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Assault can work, you just have to be sneaky about it!

[huggies01]

No offense Duncan but yes assault can work with armies that have armor saves and shooty elements to supplement. Assault based armies really do have a helluva time. But let's not turn this into a complain session about nids... down with gee dubawa.

[intrizic]

I agree I can't stand sitting across the table pulling off my assault models while I have to stare at that disgusting [big bad swear word] eating grin on my opponents face because he thinks he is the superior tactician of his stupid TauDar army. (not you kevin) But that just means that it is all the more gratifying when I march 3 turns across the board, shrugging of wounds with those impeccable 5+ saves, Take over watches up the wazoo, fail the assault, get shot at next turn, take over watch again, finally get in combat going last because my models left their grenades in their other purses apparently, and then after all this if I am able to finally tear some face in close combat and I get to hear my opponent cry about how broken my unit is. But that is ok. That's why nobody sides on the side of the Persians in the battle of Thermopylae. 

now who's whining ;)

 

 But let's not turn this into a complain session about nids... down with gee dubawa.

The intent of the thread wasn't to be a complaint session either, more of a.....let's cast our vision chat.  What do we want out of our 40k?  Do we still want 40k?  It's changing and I was like you Huggies01 (cause I'll butcher spelling your name again :D) and thought let's complain about GW and their terrible rules, some of them are so obviously poor but anyway....    We can focus on GW short comings and go no where OR!! We can take this opportunity and move our 'meta' forward in a direction we all enjoy.  I think making the move to more LoS blocking terrain has improved things.  Using BAO style missions is another improvement ( I strongly believe we need to get rid of first blood/oil )

[huggies01]

Our meta in Bellingham is great. I worry for the guys that want to take their armies to other places to compete. Depending on the rules set they use some of our armies will not hold up. I think naturally this will turn into a bitch session even if we are stating our vision. Due to the incompetence of gw. I don't think writing them will do anything. I know it won't. It sounds like gamers as a whole are discontent. I think we need to look at spreading our meta to other stores. Not as a friendly meet and greet but somewhat forcibly impose how we game. Again we are too far north so I personally feel we are out of the loop but that gives us the freedom to be mavericks. Otherwise our vision will be only in Bellingham. Probably explain it better in person tomorrow. 

 

In order to catch gw attention we are going to have to gain a lot more notoriety. 

 

Yes I was definitely whining.

[intrizic]

And I was definitely teasing you :D

 

As to the spread of our meta...I think GW is doing a great job of spreading an apparent lack of......something vague that the community can't quite put it's finger on....time will tell, I think we're closer today than ever before.

 

My turn to whine: it is very difficult to prep for tournaments in other places, meaner places.  There are armies that I just flat do not play at dark tower.  Before DTG I played in a pretty mean meta, you can ask Kingblackrot.  You lose a lot of hobby joy in that situation, plus you don't make many new friends.  I don't want DTG to be that way, nor do I want to be that guy anymore, but I do still like to compete, I just haven't figured out the best way to do this.  I think I need to switch games honestly.  I don't think a GW product will lend itself to competitive play anymore, I think the community can forge a competitive scene with the tools provided by GW, but I don't think GW will be very helpful with this.

 

I play table top to socialize.  I have seen the future of not being socially involved and I don't want to walk that path, it looks very lonely, plus games are [big bad swear word]ing cool !!!  Ok, now I'm just rambling......

 

I have heard it said that battle brothers are the root of all that's currently evil in the meta, I'm not sure I entirely believe all of that, but I think it's something to consider.

[huggies01]

I am not offended at all. I think our core group of gamers is one of the best. And I don't  give complements lightly. Tomorrow I will be going to nyp after and you should come and we can talk about your future with the dtg company.

 

It's spelled shae. However my birth certificate says Shea. Can't trust those back alley off market doctors. Either way I could give 1/2 of zero [big bad swear word]s how it's spelled. I also accept, jerk, a hole, incredible, and God like, if any of those tickle your fancy.

[intrizic]

how about "This is Sparta"? can I call you that? ;)  I think we need another golden mile by the way, pretty please?

 

I can't make it this Tuesday, can I rain check for the 4th?  Between wife and kid getting back from vacation and snow this is a [big bad swear word] week for any plans I may have wanted to do.  Seriously, I want to have this talk.

[huggies01]

Sure I will play it by ear. This might be a good discussion for all hamsters in an environment in person. Golden mile might have to wait. 

[Munkie]

II also accept, jerk, a hole, incredible, and God like, if any of those tickle your fancy.

 

I think I will start calling you a hole, Shae. Not "A-hole" mind you, just "a hole."

[Raak]

Just to muddy the waters....with my uninformed newbie opinion:

 

What about competitive tournaments? As you all know Intrizic and myself went to LVO... Well only Intrizic actually competed; and while I spent my tournament in food-poisoned hell - not competing, I plan on going to more tournaments because I like this game. Notice  didn't say I was proficient at it; but I really like it. I like garage games and as Jim said I'm cool with facing a Titan army if I know it;s comming and have something fairly equal. Do I like this game enough to put up with GW? Probably! As someone recently pointed out to me, you eventually hit a point of critical mass in your collection when you don't really need anymore of GW's stuff and at that point they are nothing more than rule-set generators, right? Heck I've even heard tell of some interesting ideas in this area that might fall under the "Homebrewed and Awesome" category.

 

Hopefully this isn't heresy resulting in apostasy but I'm 100% O.K. with setting games with people like this:

 

"Yeah, no problem - we'll do my High Elves vs. your Empire @ 2500 pts - 5th edition Codex but I need to do a tournament prep for 40k at 1850, 3 codices, D weapons and 2 Data Slates...oh and one has a 2++." "....Oh, O.K., sure! but can we make the next game a narrative based 2000 pts of 40k, 3rd edition? Yup, no sweat."

 

I think that, thankfully, there are enough hard-core awesome gamers here that such an absurd exchange might actually be seen and accommodated on ordo. So I guess my real question, and it's somewhat of a Devil's advocate mind you, is: "Does any of this really matter once everyone feels comfortable with the local meta situation or is it just another reason to get all hot an bothered on the interweb?

[VonVilkee]

Interwebz is for all things hot and bothered... Witness Shae! :p we don't keep him around for his mind...

 

On topic tho I kinda hate the Internet celebrities of the hobby the I'm the best stuff so this is what you should take gets bandied around to much I like what pax keeps trying to do. Keep a child like naivety about your game pick a story and forge that narrative!

[huggies01]

Interwebz is for all things hot and bothered... Witness Shae! :p we don't keep him around for his mind...

 

On topic tho I kinda hate the Internet celebrities of the hobby the I'm the best stuff so this is what you should take gets bandied around to much I like what pax keeps trying to do. Keep a child like naivety about your game pick a story and forge that narrative!

He'll no I am kept around for my rocking bod and sexy sweet moves. I thought this was general knowledge? Jon  you gotta play more 40k so you can stop calling yourself a newbie. And Kevin play your cards right and you can call me anything you like.