Considering getting into 6th

[Natefoo]

Marine bikers running from codex marines ala white scars? Just buy a ton of Dark vengeance bikers? How many to field an effective army?

[WestRider]

On Lord Hanaur's list, instead of shelling out for the single Commander Model, I'd just buy another box of Crisis Suits and convert one of them up all fancy to be the Commander.

 

@Pax: Yeah, paying 6 Points more per Bike compared to a Khan list to gain Teleport Homers and benefits from easily snipable Banners while losing Skilled Rider*, Move Through Cover*, larger potential Squad Size, better Special Weapon access, and better Support Units is so much more "elite".

 

*They don't have the specific Rules, but the effects are the same.

[Guest]

On Lord Hanaur's list, instead of shelling out for the single Commander Model, I'd just buy another box of Crisis Suits and convert one of them up all fancy to be the Commander.

 

@Pax: Yeah, paying 6 Points more per Bike compared to a Khan list to gain Teleport Homers and benefits from easily snipable Banners while losing Skilled Rider*, Move Through Cover*, larger potential Squad Size, better Special Weapon access, and better Support Units is so much more "elite".

 

*They don't have the specific Rules, but the effects are the same.

Why do you guys always dwell on the raven wing attack squadrons and the command squads? We have lots and lots of other options, many of which are much more viable than the above example units. I play DA and I never run attack squadrons, they just don't fill any roles in

 

So, for more elite, we have terminators with access to assault term options and regular term options within the same squad. They gain the split fire rule and get to choose the turn they arrive from deep strike, rather than rolling reserves. They TL their weapons on the drop. Our terminators are fearless and have preferred enemy CSM. Even without being scoring, that is more "elite" than stock SM terminators (they are more expensive, so you pay for the elite nature).

 

We have a biker unit that features TL plasma guns instead of TL bolters on every model in the unit. 

 

Our land Raiders can purchase the venerable rule.

 

We have a speeder which grants stealth to nearby friendly models. Online consensus seems to be about using this only with bikes, but you can use it with flyer jink, smoke launchers, camo cloaks or with techmarine bolstered terrain.

 

And so forth.

-Pax

 

PS: I will also note that with the command squads, you don't need to snipe the banners out. The entire unit is small enough that they often die to normal shooting before the banner is sniped.

 

Not a fan of the spendy banners. Still, with the right list, you can DS them into position and get a turn or two of banner affected models. TDA command squad can put a storm shield and FNP on the banner model, and with another unit (DW knights), we can increase their toughness to 5, if needed. 2+/3++ T5 and FNP is about the best we can do, but should be enough that the banner survives against most enemies. Still, I don't really like the spendy banners because they are too spendy...

 

My command squad runs combi-meltas and drops in a pod. Unit is a solid suicide squad that takes no FOC slots. The RW one is cheaper for the outflanking plasma than the FA slot one is. The terminator one is a non-slot TDA unit with apothecary access and a champion with an AP2 relic blade - No faults there.

 

As for biker attack squads, yeah, more per model. We've had this discussion. Min squad size is two models lower than the WS scoring bikers, so RW biker units are cheaper, while WS biker models are less expensive. I've never been a fan of biker armies, so I don't field them as troops. The TP homers are nice with the scout and the terminators that can arrive turn 1, but I'll admit to rarely using it as such.

-Pax

[Dark Trainer]

Honestly there's some questions you need to ask yourself.

 

1) Do you want OMGPWNED J00 type lists, then yeah the latest and greatest codexes are nuts (not now, until the next latest and greatest trumps it (as usual)

 

2) Since the above is not my style, then ask yourself what type of gameplay excites you?

- Pure shooting and dice chucking, calculating cover, and angles of shots, etc. Then Tau is not only powerful right now, but purely shooty. Even Riptide's can assault at some point, but typically you just take the charges and hide in a corner shooting all game.

- Do you like to assault mainly with shooting as a backup? Then your orks do fine. They haven't been updated, and I hear people belly aching about power lists, but you can't deny 150+ orks in front of you are a threat and tough to deal with.

- If you want both, decent assault and decent shooting, then Marines have always been solid in both. Not over the top, but strong enough. Chapters do matter, but this is part of the synergy of marines (personally I am leaning towards getting rid of my marines, not my style).

 

That said, just look at how you want to play. This may just be me, but there's my 2 cents.

[WestRider]

I pick on the Ravenwing because they're the easiest example, since the SM ones are really good, and the DA ones are mediocre at best.

 

The DeathWing are more or less the same story, except that unlike Bikes, Vanilla Terminators are overpriced too (they cost like three Marines, shoot like one and a half, and die like two), so it's a slide from bad to worse, which is less dramatic.

 

It's the same with all of their stuff. They've got some cool tricks, but they're so expensive, and they die just as easily as the cheaper versions, and so the Army as a whole is too fragile and falls apart. I love my DA, and I still love to bring them out for casual games, but I've been forced to admit that they just don't play on the same level as the Vanilla Dex. The only things I really feel positive about in the Dex without reserve are the Power Field Generator and native access to Divination.

[Aventine]

Marine bikers running from codex marines ala white scars? Just buy a ton of Dark vengeance bikers? How many to field an effective army?

 

A solid list could easily have 30-50 Bikers in it, depending on support elements (close to 50 Bikers and you are not looking at a lot of support).

[dashneeb]

I'd actually say that Dark Angels and White Scar flavor marines make the best of friends.

[Lord Hanaur]

Honestly there's some questions you need to ask yourself.

...

 

 

- Pure shooting and dice chucking, calculating cover, and angles of shots, etc. Then Tau is not only powerful right now, but purely shooty. Even Riptide's can assault at some point, but typically you just take the charges and hide in a corner shooting all game.

 

 

 

 

That said, just look at how you want to play. This may just be me, but there's my 2 cents.

I pretty strongly disagree.  My OFCC Tau list is anything but stagnant, and it's not spammy.  No Aegis and no 200 Riptide lists for me.  We on the move baby!

 

(I just ninja'd your ninja)

[Guest]

I pick on the Ravenwing because they're the easiest example, since the SM ones are really good, and the DA ones are mediocre at best.

 

The DeathWing are more or less the same story, except that unlike Bikes, Vanilla Terminators are overpriced too (they cost like three Marines, shoot like one and a half, and die like two), so it's a slide from bad to worse, which is less dramatic.

 

It's the same with all of their stuff. They've got some cool tricks, but they're so expensive, and they die just as easily as the cheaper versions, and so the Army as a whole is too fragile and falls apart. I love my DA, and I still love to bring them out for casual games, but I've been forced to admit that they just don't play on the same level as the Vanilla Dex. The only things I really feel positive about in the Dex without reserve are the Power Field Generator and native access to Divination.

Hmmm...I somewhat agree in some areas. I think the LS vengeance and RW attack squadrons are mostly worthless portions of our codex. Making attack bikes solos was a bad call. Making solo speeders that can never scoring is also a bad call. As troops they don't function very well and as fast attack they don't function as our better bike models (RW knights). The LS vengeance is just overpriced for it's solo role. If the LS vengeance was an 0-1 upgrade for LS squadrons, it would be amazing because I could burn off the cheaper speeders to give it some defensive ability. As is, it's just too expensive for an AV10 skimmer with 2 HP.

 

As for the DA in general, they are an army full of doubled edged swords. Aside from the above two, I think every unit in our codex has good potential in the right situation, while they will bite you in other situations.

 

The PFG is a perfect example. On the one hand, a 4++ to any allies (even desperate) and friendlies alike. Unfortunately, this one also grants the enemy a 4++, even in assault. So an assault with a PFG has my enemy with 4++ even if my enemy is a stationary vehicle, like a used drop pod. Furthermore, some enemy armies actually have bonuses to their invulnerable save and are bolstered by the 4++ (tzeentch CSM, GK force swords, might be a few more). So a character of mine with the PFG that get's assaulted by CSM spawn with MoT have a 3++ against my character. And this save extends in a radius, so it could potentially affect combats which my character is not a part of.

-Pax

[JamesBeadle]

Many here have had much to say on what you ought to get into, or have given advice on how to go about aquiring an army, so I will not add much here.

 

I have always had large collections, and I aquired 80% of them on Bartertown.com. I think you are much more likely to get an army you will be happy with for $300 there, than going retail or even on Craigslist. Unless you have substatial feedback there, you will have to pay first, but I have been doing BT for seven years, and I've not ever been ripped off in purchasing armies. 

 

Just my two cents. 

[ChaosGerbil]

Out of the power armor books DA and Chaos always get hosed, while vanilla Space Marines get the most options.

White Scars are brutal, and they will be even better if consolidating into assaults comes back.

[Natefoo]

Okay, thinking of running vanilla SM bikers as white scars. What sort of support do I need? Thunderfire cannons? Stormraven? What compliments the marine biker army well? Ally's?

 

Seems its gonna be near a $500,investment all told, unless I can find used bikers, which seem unlikely.

[Aventine]

Even with DV bikers?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40-000-Dark-Angels-Dark-Vengeance-Bike-Squad-/151236882274?pt=Games_US&hash=item23366baf62

[Guest]

Okay, thinking of running vanilla SM bikers as white scars. What sort of support do I need? Thunderfire cannons? Stormraven? What compliments the marine biker army well? Ally's?

Lots of ways to go about it. Bikes could be the advance force, while a backfield force bombards and secures objectives. Could also double up with even more speedy non-bike units.

 

For allies, many WS biker armies include DA allies for our Dark Shroud, an 80pt FA speeder that improves the biker cover save by giving them stealth. They then include a 5-man scout squad and a 65pt divination librarian. Then, they spend the rest of the time complaining about how worthless the options of the DA codex that they never try are in comparison to their precious WS army.

-Pax

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

I don't see the gain of shrouded for bike army, white scar have good enough, things that ignore cover will also ignore the shrouding.

 

Allies, I think tau fit well. You can do a suit contigent and keep the theme of speed or gun line for range support

[Guest]

I don't see the gain of shrouded for bike army, white scar have good enough, things that ignore cover will also ignore the shrouding.

 

Allies, I think tau fit well. You can do a suit contigent and keep the theme of speed or gun line for range support

Gains stealth, not shrouded, but WS bikers already have skilled rider, so jink is 4+ base and 3+ with stealth. Weapons that deny cover often don't deny the armor too. That's the logic anyway, I don't run WS, but as a DA player, make note of DA in others' armies.

 

Div psyker is fearless (and stubborn if it matters) and prefered enemy CSM for 65pts, these abilities are conferred to joined units. Can be given a bike or PFG as needed. Scouts aren't a terrible addition either and cost is no different from SM ones provided you'd take sniper rifles.

-Pax

[Natefoo]

So I've been costing some things, reading a bit and figuring out what I want for a WS biker army.

 

I figure the army will be based around Khan and 4 full units of bikers. To support this, I'm looking toward the following:

 

2x thunder fire cannons

2x stormtalon gunships

1 x stormraven with a tactical squad And possible extra HQ

 

Do any of these options compliment bikers well? Should I go a different route? Allies?

 

I want to build 1000-2000 point lists.

[Guest]

So I've been costing some things, reading a bit and figuring out what I want for a WS biker army.

 

I figure the army will be based around Khan and 4 full units of bikers. To support this, I'm looking toward the following:

 

2x thunder fire cannons

2x stormtalon gunships

1 x stormraven with a tactical squad And possible extra HQ

 

Do any of these options compliment bikers well? Should I go a different route? Allies?

 

I want to build 1000-2000 point lists.

Thunderfire cannons are nice in just about all SM lists. Having a dedicated AA option, like a flyer is also usually a good call.

 

I will note that with each of these options, they will detract from the number of models "in their face" for turn 1. The flyers must start in reserve and the thunderfire likely won't be in TLOS as it's a barrage weapon. This means that the bikes or whatever else is present turn 1 will likely need to be able to shrug off the enemy shooting.

 

On thing to keep in mind with (non-jet)bike armies is that the bikes can't go on the upper levels of ruins (usually floor 3 or higher to clear the 3" from the ground level) and can't entire buildings or their battlements. This means that if an objective is placed on the upper levels of a ruin (perfectly legal placement), it is unattainably for the bike army. To this end, it's usually smart to include a unit or two for the role of removing or just contesting objectives placed up there.

-Pax

[Natefoo]

Here is my first list attempt:

 

HQ

 

Khan on bike

 

Troops

 

4x units of 8 space marine bikers w/ grav-gun, veteran sergeant w/ powerfist, plus attack bike w/ MultiMelta

 

Heavy Support

 

Thunder fire cannon

Thunder fire cannon

 

Storm wing dataslate

(2x stock storm talons and a stock storm raven)

 

If my math is right, that all come out to 1942 points.

 

Thats 36 bikes.

 

I realize the thunder fire cannons are a bit isolated.

 

And all three flyers come in on one reserve roll. Crazy!

 

How's it look?

[Guest]

Hmm....well dataslates aren't always kosher. Make sure they are allowed where you are.

 

As for list strength, it's pretty strong. Certainly, lots of ways to counter or destroy it, but pretty strong for non-escalation 40k.

 

If you intend to play with escalation rules, the list will have some major problems. In particular, you will face a key issue that all of your melee AT options for high AV are unwieldy, which means that if you get stuck against a super heavy walker in assault, you probably won't have a chance. The grav weapons can't imobilize the super heavies and still require 6s for HP damage. The MM and flyers are good, but the real challenge will be keeping your scoring alive when you can't hide on multiple levels of terrain. The thunderfire cannons are also mostly useless against many of the escalation units, though they retain value in the army against lighter units.

 

The Knight Titan lists will really present a challenge to this list, as you can't afford to engage them in assault, but you will need to stay at mid-low range for the grav/MM shots which you will need in order to win...

[Natefoo]

So you're saying that to combat Super Heavies, I need more reliable anti-armor? I haven't heard about escalation yet. That's allowing superheavies in non apocalypse games?

 

If I were to scrap the three flyers, what other anti-armor And anti-flyer options are efficient for SM?

[Guest]

So you're saying that to combat Super Heavies, I need more reliable anti-armor? I haven't heard about escalation yet. That's allowing superheavies in non apocalypse games?

 

If I were to scrap the three flyers, what other anti-armor And anti-flyer options are efficient for SM?

Nah, your AT is reliable, it's just mostly close range or strikes last initiative. Against, say, one of those knight titans, they strike at I:4 with a D melee weapon. It's front armor is 13 and it's a walker, so it's going to swing at the same time that you lob ineffective krak grenades at it. If you survive, yeah, you'll have the fist (5s to glance), but you really want to have a unit or two that can be in assault and damage it at least simultaneously, but hopefully at higher initiative.

 

A dread would work for striking simultaneously. The Ironclad with a chainfist is good on that end. You can tow it with the SR, so it's slow speed doesn't mess with your bike theme.

 

For striking first, really need a character for that, I think. Not sure what weapons the stock SM have which would allow S8+ attacks at initiative 5+. Perhaps you want allies or psychic powers for this issue. The other choice is to forgo the melee option and include more ranged AT options. A command squad with 5 melta guns in a pod is usually a pretty strong AT solution - against super heavies the results are still impressive, but it likely won't be a complete kill. Ranged allies can also work.

 

Not sure what weapons the storms and SR carry in that formation. Suggest getting Lascannons on the storms and lascannons on the SR (hull mm or cyclone, player preference). If you do take AT on one of the flyers, be sure to apply similar upgrades to all of them. If they all arrive at the same time, you don't want the opponent just focus firing their interceptor weapons on the only flyer that's helpful...

 

Quite honestly, I think the power fists are a waste of points. I think in most SM situations, a power sword (or power lance) and a melta bomb will be much more impressive than the fist. Even then, given the speed of your army, you don't really need a melee solution because you should be able to stay out of melee if you want. I'd take melta bombs for buildings and stupid vehicles, but I doubt you'll face situations where the S8 fist is amazing enough that it's worth +20pts over the melta bomb. Power fists (and power axes) are also really fail-tastic in challenges, as the opponent will strike first, kill you, and then carry any wounds over to affecting if your SM won or lost the assault - you could refuse, but then why take the fist?

 

I do think that the thunderfire cannons are potentially a weak point to this list. They are strong weapons and if they are able to shoot at worthy targets, they should be impressive, but they are also first blood targets for this army as they present the easiest kill for a single unit in the army. They also will be the furtherest from the main force, as while the bikes and flyers move they will have to be stationary to keep firing. It may be worth the risk, I'm not sure. If you combat squad the bikes, the thunderfires won't be the weak point, so maybe this isn't an issue.

 

Personally, I'd take 1 thunderfire or a whirlwind instead - the whirlwind is certainly less impressive, but in a pinch, it can move on from reserves and fire normally instead of having to be on the table turn 1. The thunderfire is amazing at what it's amazing against, but fails at some things too. Taking two seems like inviting the opponent to only field what it fails against...just my thoughts.

-Pax

[WestRider]

Being weak against Super-Heavies isn't really a damning indictment of a List. The vast majority of Armies fall in that category. Especially in CC; there's almost nothing in the Game that strikes at I5+ and can do significant damage to AV13.

 

My main suggestion would be to fill in a second Grav Gun on each Bike Squad (unless you're already doubled up, but just don't show it), and maybe "pre-split" one, swapping it out for two Squads of 4+Attack Bike. Maybe take Meltas instead of Grav on those smaller Squads. Combi-Weapons on Sergeants aren't a bad idea, either.

 

Even if your Opponents don't allow Dataslates, you've got room in the FOC to fit your Talons and Raven, so you're good there regardless, they just get a little less efficient that way.

[Guest]

Being weak against Super-Heavies isn't really a damning indictment of a List. The vast majority of Armies fall in that category. Especially in CC; there's almost nothing in the Game that strikes at I5+ and can do significant damage to AV13.

 

My main suggestion would be to fill in a second Grav Gun on each Bike Squad (unless you're already doubled up, but just don't show it), and maybe "pre-split" one, swapping it out for two Squads of 4+Attack Bike. Maybe take Meltas instead of Grav on those smaller Squads. Combi-Weapons on Sergeants aren't a bad idea, either.

 

Even if your Opponents don't allow Dataslates, you've got room in the FOC to fit your Talons and Raven, so you're good there regardless, they just get a little less efficient that way.

Uhhh... my wyches with haywire grenades will rape that AV 13 at intiative 6 (getting them there remains a challenge). If the super heavy is also a daemon (lord of skulls), draigo is pretty awesome too. Hive tyrants and most of the Daemon MCs via smash. Rending on infantry with S4+ works too.

 

If only needing to strike at the same time, the DW knights are pretty awesome, as are dread knights and a few others. Some psychic powers can even boost initiative, strength, or otherwise penetration odds for themselves or a unit. Dreadnoughts, as already mentioned, are pretty awesome too.

-Pax

[WestRider]

I didn't say nothing. I said "almost nothing". It goes down to pretty much just Eldar/DE Units with Haywire Grenades if the Knight player is making you Charge through Cover.

 

Some of the MCs are good here if you can get a clear Charge, but Dreads are kind of garbage in this situation unless you can really swarm the thing with them, because they're pretty much guaranteed to explode as soon as it swings on them