GW's Sudden Death FAQ and TAU flying transports

[Guest]

Quote

 

Page 215

– Sudden Death

Change point 2 to read:

‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one

player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends

immediately and their opponent automatically wins a

crushing victory. When determining if a player has any

units on the battlefield, do not include any units with

the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate

within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot

hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do

not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield

Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the

most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to

pose a threat.’

 

So I'm looking at their FAQ and at my TAU flyers. A little lost why having a whole bunch of guys in a flying transport means that they'd be unable to disgourge their contents and hold objectives at a later point in the game. All TAU flyers have the Flyer Battlefield Role, even the ones which should logically be lords of war.

Sunshark Bomber: Can detach 2x Drones during the battle which become their own ground-based unit (which also technically have the flyer battlefield role).

Tiger Shark Fighter Bomber: Transport Bay holds 14 Tactical Drones

Orca: Holds 65 infantry.

Manta: Holds 200 infantry.

 

Seems kinda crazy that showing up with infantry/drones embarked in flying transports means that can't hold objectives and therefore are unable to win, so you lose to sudden death...

[Lyraeus]

They are not separate units until they get off the vehicle. Until that point they are part of the flyer. 

For instance you can't use the drones of a sunshark bomber to take hits for a Riptide while attached to a bomber. Since they are not a separate model until the drones disembark from the bomber that are not valid targets for that. 

[Lyraeus]

Models embarked inside let's say a Manta would count though. Just like they would would for a Valkyrie I believe. 

 

Though it could be those are not limited to the Flyer battlefield role

[Guest]

Just now, Lyraeus said:

They are not separate units until they get off the vehicle. Until that point they are part of the flyer. 

For instance you can't use the drones of a sunshark bomber to take hits for a Riptide while attached to a bomber. Since they are not a separate model until the drones disembark from the bomber that are not valid targets for that. 

I understand the rule, I just don't think that their description of why the rule is there matches with the TAU flyers in question.

[Guest]

Just now, Lyraeus said:

Models embarked inside let's say a Manta would count though. Just like they would would for a Valkyrie I believe. 

 

Though it could be those are not limited to the Flyer battlefield role

Wait, are you suggesting that embarked units would be counted? Aren't they not on the table until they disembark?

[Ish]

@paxmiles If you want to pony up the $1,700 USD for a Manta, I will happily let you interpret the rules for it in whatever way you chose. I paid less than that for my first two cars... combined.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ish said:

@paxmiles If you want to pony up the $1,700 USD for a Manta, I will happily let you interpret the rules for it in whatever way you chose. I paid less than that for my first two cars... combined.

Manta is a bit of extreme example, since the flyer is 2k by itself, so any transportation options can't really be fielded in normal games.

10 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Wait, are you suggesting that embarked units would be counted? Aren't they not on the table until they disembark?

Perhaps I'm missing something. Are units inside of transports considered "on the table" in this edition of 40k?

If so, the flyers not counting wouldn't impair the embarked units from counting. And that is reasonable.

[WestRider]

This is one of those "purely for game balance" rulings. Don't think too hard about the rationale. Embarked Models do not count as being on the table for this purpose, since Storm Ravens were one of the major offenders that led to this, and it would have been too easy to work around if you could just stick a Scout Squad or some Servitors or something in there.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, WestRider said:

This is one of those "purely for game balance" rulings. Don't think too hard about the rationale. Embarked Models do not count as being on the table for this purpose, since Storm Ravens were one of the major offenders that led to this, and it would have been too easy to work around if you could just stick a Scout Squad or some Servitors or something in there.

I can see that, but do you have a rules source that models embarked are not considered "on the table"? Been looking, I can't find it.

Actually, can't figure out where the embarked models count as being at all.

[WestRider]

When they Embark, they are "removed from the battlefield". When they Disembark, they are "set up on the battlefield". It's the exact same wording as, for instance, the Blood Angels' Wings of Fire stratagem, which clearly results in the Unit not being on the board for the remainder of that Movement Phase. Also, I'm not aware of anywhere that they tell you to "set up" Models that are currently on the Battlefield. That usage, as far as I can tell, is only for things that weren't in play (at least momentarily) before that.

[Ish]

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.

—Main Rulebook, p. 183 (emphasis mine)

[Guest]

Thank you.

Disappointing answer, but thank you for helping me find it.