Best way to outfit a 6-man squad of Death Company?

[Stoobert]

I just got some parts to make a 6-man Death Company.  I haven't been playing much and I'm only familiar enough with the Codex (don't own it) to know that I have a lot of options here, and I have quite a few bits.  I was thinking some all-Fighty, no shooty:

With jump packs

1x Thunderhammer

3x Powerfist and Hand Flamer

2x Poweraxe and Bolt Pistol

But sheeeit, I don't know...is it better to go cheaper with Swords instead of Fists?  😁 thoughts?

 

 

[Guest]

I think the codex astrates suggests squads of 5 or 10. 

[Ish]

The most important question: what do you want the squad to do?

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

The most important question: what do you want the squad to do?

 

He said:

 

2 hours ago, Stoobert said:

all-Fighty, no shooty:

 

[Ish]

Yes, he did say that. But what does he want it to fight? If the goal is to be an anti-tank squad then they’ll want very different weapons than an anti-infantry squad... and an anti-TEQ squad will need different tools than an anti-GEQ squad. Six guys with dual lightning claws are fantastic against chaff blobs, but won’t do diddly to a Land Raider.

Horses for courses.

[Guest]

BA are +1 to wound in melee. I suggest paired lightingclaws on every model. If the unit is too expensive, could have a few models armed with only basic weapons (bolter or chainsword) there as seat fillers (and the first picked to die when they get shot).

Against T7 tanks, BA with lightning claws will wound on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, so they'll effectively wound 75% of the time. That's better than wounding on 3s without the re-roll, and the extra attacks are pretty awesome. 

Not as effective against T8+, but should be awesome against anything else.

Regarding AP, lightning claws are "only" -2 ap. I've found -2 to be the sweet spot for ap in 8e, just because most things either lack a decent save at -2ap and waste good ap OR they have an invulnerable save that makes a mockery of good ap. Should still have some -3 or -4 ap weapons somewhere in the army, just in case, though units that deal mortal wounds would also work. 

EDIT: I don't recall if DC can take paired lightning claws. I think they can, but I'm not sure. 

 

[Ish]

AP -1 seems to be the “sweet spot” for ranged attacks, since it’s easier to get a high volume of fire with shooting than assault.

 

[WestRider]

Unfortunately, Lightning Claws aren't an option for Death Company, because they would be fantastic here. I would probably go with something like two Thunder Hammers, and the rest with some mix of Power Axes and Power Swords, plus Chainswords for extra attacks against chaff Units. Don't bother with Pistols, the ones the DC have access to are pretty bad unless you want to go all-in on an Inferno Pistol Squad, and even then, they're still kinda bad. Just take the free Chainswords instead.

[Ish]

2x Power Maul, Chainsword

2x Power Axe, Chainsword

2x Thunderhammer

This is a nice “all-rounders” squad that will do well against GEQ, MEQ, and Rhino-chassis tanks.

Mauls have a slight statistical edge against GEQ than Axes; Likewise, Axes have a slight statistical edge against MEQ compared to Mauls... Two of each balances out and the Chainswords are free attacks that are more valuable to Blood Angels than bolt pistols would be.

The Thunder Hammers’ flat D 3 is superior to Power Fists’ random D d3, they’re also great against TEQ, Primaris, and T7 or T8 vehicles.

If you want dedicated “chaff hunters,” go with 2x power maul and chainsword, 2x power sword and chainsword, 2x power maul and hand flamer. Such a squad could massacre an entire “Loyal 32” blob in one turn.

If you want dedicated “TEQ hunters,” go with 4x power axe and chainsword, 2x thunder hammer. Run them alongside Captain Slamguinius and they can chew through a Knight if need be.

[Stoobert]

@Ish thank you for your wisdom.  @WestRider the Chainswords will be extra sauce - thank you much for letting me know that was possible!  I didn't know I could double trouble hand weapons with Death Co, that's super fun and exactly what I wanted - chop chop!

Since I will likely play my Blood Angels as allies with Guard, I anticipate having plenty of Lascannons and Hellhounds.  I anticipate using these Death Co as a counter-charge unit, likely against MEQ.  I actually hadn't considered Power Mauls, unfortunately, because I don't have any.  (insert sad Rage here)

So I think I'm going to go with Power Swords + Chainswords with one Thunderhammer thrown in just in case. 

Here's my reasoning (please correct if wrong): since Swords are S4 they will wound with the Thirst MEQ on 3+ and T5-8 on a 4+.  AP-3 will come in handy against anything from MEQ to Land Raiders.  The Thunderhammer will be nice against something with a lot of Wounds. 

 

 

[Guest]

I will note that you could always field your death company models as Vanguard Veterans, and that would give them a wider array of weapon options. Basically, for conversions, you'd really only need to paint them red, instead of the death company black.

[WestRider]

3 hours ago, Stoobert said:

@Ish thank you for your wisdom.  @WestRider the Chainswords will be extra sauce - thank you much for letting me know that was possible!  I didn't know I could double trouble hand weapons with Death Co, that's super fun and exactly what I wanted - chop chop!

Since I will likely play my Blood Angels as allies with Guard, I anticipate having plenty of Lascannons and Hellhounds.  I anticipate using these Death Co as a counter-charge unit, likely against MEQ.  I actually hadn't considered Power Mauls, unfortunately, because I don't have any.  (insert sad Rage here)

So I think I'm going to go with Power Swords + Chainswords with one Thunderhammer thrown in just in case. 

Here's my reasoning (please correct if wrong): since Swords are S4 they will wound with the Thirst MEQ on 3+ and T5-8 on a 4+.  AP-3 will come in handy against anything from MEQ to Land Raiders.  The Thunderhammer will be nice against something with a lot of Wounds.

Yeah, when you get a chance to read their Codex entry more closely, it gives a bunch of specific possible swaps. The relevant point here is that either the Bolt Pistol or the Chainsword can be exchanged for a Power Weapon/Fist. Regrettably, since the Death Company kit only includes Thunder Hammers held in two hands, you have to swap both out for a Thunder Hammer. I still recommend taking two Thunder Hammers, unless you have a Chaplain of some sort accompanying them. Three Attacks hitting on 4+ is just not very reliable, especially when most of the things worth hitting with a Thunder Hammer are going to need rather more than 3 Wounds to take down.

Power Swords are a pretty good generalist option in 8th, but as noted above, AP-2 is often the most that's actually worthwhile, and sometimes, being S5 can be really handy, whether that's a protracted combat with T4 foes or needing some hits beyond the Thunder Hammers on a T8 target. So that's why I recommend mixing in a couple of Axes as well.

[Ish]

The differences between a MEQ (WS 3+ S 4) swinging one of the three power weapon types (sword, axe, maul) against MEQ (T4, 3+) targets is actually pretty minimal. The chance of an unsaved wound getting through are 42% sword, 44% axe, 33% maul. 

Against a GEQ (T3, 5+) target, chances are are 67% sword, 67% axe, 70% maul.

So, realistically speaking, you get practically the same performance out of any of the three. If you don’t feel the need to squeeze every 3% advantage out of them, then use whatever you think looks coolest.

[Stoobert]

@Ish that's good perspective, thanks.  Given my infrequency of play it really doesn't matter: Swords, Axes or Mauls.  I'm not looking to maximize.  And the next edition will probably change everything anyway, so the only way to win this game is to make models I like.  At least that's my perspective... 😁

[Stoobert]

 

6 hours ago, WestRider said:

 S5 can be really handy, whether that's a protracted combat with T4 foes or needing some hits beyond the Thunder Hammers on a T8 target. So that's why I recommend mixing in a couple of Axes as well.

Forgive my ignorance WestRider, but it seems Axes are better at wounding, but Swords reduce the Armor save more, so it's a statistical wash, yes?   Where an SM-wielded Axe would be better than Sword is against few things who have high Toughness > 3 but an Armor of 5+ or worse, and that's not a lot of stuff: basically Demons or Ogryns?  Wait...with Demons (or Terminators for that matter) it's an 5+ Invul save anyway, so AP doesn't matter as much, is that what you mean?

[Ish]

With Power Swords being S User (so a 4 for most Marines) and AP -3, they are the best choice against targets that rely on Saves over Toughness* to shrug off hits or low(er) Toughness targets with good Invulnerable Saves, like Crusaders, who basically ignore AP anyway since they have good Invulnerables.

A Power Maul is S+2 (so a 6 for Marines) but only AP -1. This means the ideal target  is low Save (5+ or worse) units that rely on Toughness to shrug off hits or (more commonly) just rely on having enough bodies in the unit to not care (much) about casualties**.

But, we’re not talking a stark night-and-day difference here. There is a measurable difference, of course, but for a “filthy casual”*** you probably needn’t worry about it that much. 

* Sisters of Battle and Aspect Warriors being the most common.

** Tyranid ‘gaunts and Guardsmen, being prime examples.

*** Like me! 

[Ish]

Interestingly enough, because of the order in which the Strength bonus and the weapon strength multiplier are applied, a Death Company with a Thunder Hammer is S 10.

With a Jump Pack giving them Fly, a squad of jumping Death Company with a few hammerers are amongst the best anti-aircraft units in the Imperium! 😳

They can also tussle with Knights pretty well. They probably won’t survive, but they can really put the hurt on one.

I’d include one hammer in every five Death Company, minimum.

[WestRider]

25 minutes ago, Stoobert said:

 

Forgive my ignorance WestRider, but it seems Axes are better at wounding, but Swords reduce the Armor save more, so it's a statistical wash, yes?   Where an SM-wielded Axe would be better than Sword is against few things who have high Toughness > 3 but an Armor of 5+ or worse, and that's not a lot of stuff: basically Demons or Ogryns?  Wait...with Demons (or Terminators for that matter) it's an 5+ Invul save anyway, so AP doesn't matter as much, is that what you mean?

Yeah, it's the stuff with a 3+/5++ or 2+/4++ that tends to cap useful AP at -2. Not always, there are certainly times when it's really nice to have the -4 from that Meltagun, but I don't bother going out of my way to really load up on AP-3 or better.

8 minutes ago, Ish said:

Interestingly enough, because of the order in which the Strength bonus and the weapon strength multiplier are applied, a Death Company with a Thunder Hammer is S 10.

DC are only S4. Red Thirst is +1 to Wound. Or were you talking about the Blood Chalice bonus from a Sanguinary Priest? That would get them to S5, which the TH would double to S10.

[Ish]

Oh, okay, you’re right... Mea culpa. I’m a bit sketchy on Blood Angels.

[WestRider]

They were +1S on the Charge for the last 5 Editions, so it's an entirely understandable mix-up. I actually had to go look through the Dex to make sure I wasn't just missing something myself.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Yeah, it's the stuff with a 3+/5++ or 2+/4++ that tends to cap useful AP at -2. Not always, there are certainly times when it's really nice to have the -4 from that Meltagun, but I don't bother going out of my way to really load up on AP-3 or better.

 Also the stuff that only has a 5+ armor save or the stuff that only has an invulnerable save. And then those annoying pox walkers which  have a flat 5+ ignore damage ability. 

I will note that the value of really impressive AP changes if you have a method of stripping the target of their invulnerable saves. CSM and C:SM both have psychic powers that can remove invulnerable saves in a temporary capacity. I don't think BA have an option there, but if you have one, having more impressive AP can be useful.

[Stoobert]

I've taken your recommendations (thanks guys @WestRider @Ish and @paxmiles) and built my Death Company with the bits I have, and given them a paint job that, while not an award-winner, is more than adequate and I'm quite proud of.  I'm looking forward to a big-time charge soon!