Feedback on my OFCC Vampires list?

[King Mekhet]

Hi all,

Here's a list I've been looking at for my Khemri-themed Vampire Counts list, which I'm hoping to premiere at the OFCC team event. The restrictions I've placed upon myself are that the list a) uses skeletons (rather than zombies) as core, b) all models must fit a bronze-age Egyptian/pseudo-Roman theme (so no black knights, no blood knights) c) the list must be fun and dynamic, with lots of fast movement and flying (because coming over from Tomb Kings flying units are amaaaaaazzziiiiinnngggg), and finally d) the list must contain my flying, vampiric Pharoah and Queen because I have awesome models for them and want them in my list).

With that in mind, here's my first crack at making a list for OFCC. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on the list, particularly on how to make it more in keeping with the spirit of the event.
 

Lords:

King Mekhet**

Vampire Lord

Heavy Armour, Shield, Hellsteed

Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard

Quickblood, Red Fury

Level 1 (Vampires)

**I tried running him as a Ghoul King but he's just so damned fragile and all my hammers evaporate when he dies. Hellsteed means he can't be stepped on, though it also means he'll have to get better at catching cannonballs...

Vizier Neferkare
Master Necromancer
Level 4 (Vampires)
Black Periapt
 

Heroes:

Queen Iset

Heavy Armour, Lance, Hellsteed

Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield

Red Fury

Level 2 (Shadow)  - (also on a hellsteed so that she can swap places with her husband with the lore attribute...because I've always thought that was really cool, as little use as it can be in game)

 

Priest Skraul Khaddie

Necromancer

Level 1 (Vampires)
Dispel Scroll  -   (it's a safety blanket, I know)

 

Core:

4x5 Dogs

2x40 skeletons (FC)

1x15 skeletons (champ)  -  (necros go here)

 

Special:

6 Crypt Horrors (Champ)

5 Hex Wraiths

1 Spirit Host

4 Vargheists (Champ)  -  (Because 3 just isn't enough, and 6 puts a huge target on their heads)

4 Vargheists (Champ)

 

 

Rare:

1 Terrorgheist  -  (To give people something to shoot at that isn't vargheists, and to deal with those nasty steam tanks and skullcrushers)

 

 

Total: 2797

 

 

[Drak]

looks good, I'm excited to see this one on the table.

[WarlordGhrom]

Check your counts for Blood and Glory.  Make sure you aren't too fragile as I only count 2 standards (no BSB)...  You are close to failing quickly in that one.

[King Mekhet]

Check your counts for Blood and Glory.  Make sure you aren't too fragile as I only count 2 standards (no BSB)...  You are close to failing quickly in that one.

Oh that's a good call. The skeleton bricks get shaved down to 39 to put a banner in the bunker unit. That gives me 6 fortitude (assuming that my Terrorgheist counts, as per the scenario rules HERE). So long as I keep my general alive I should be okay (and if my vampire is dead I'm pretty screwed anyways).

 

 

edit: any feedback on how this list might be rated? I'd like to think it's quite reasonable, but if people think it's too hard I'd rather know now so that I can alter my modelling goals accordingly (the amount of scratch-builds and conversions is pretty extensive and time consuming...).

[ClassicFlava]

As a list rater I can tell you that we can not give any estimations on ratings as we won't know what a 3 is until we have all of the lists in. Make sense?

[King Mekhet]

As a list rater I can tell you that we can not give any estimations on ratings as we won't know what a 3 is until we have all of the lists in. Make sense?

 

Can you at least give me an idea of whether I'm on the right track? I've tried my best to build something that's as fun and non-netlisty as possible, but this will be my first time at OFCC so I only have a shaky idea of what I ought to be shooting for.

[ClassicFlava]

I can tell you that I can't see this list being rejected.

[Drak]

with lots of mobile glass cannons (Vargs), a mobile blender lord (ogre blade, red fury and quickblood is the net definition of a blender lord) a lot of magic potential, some ethereal, and a TG. I'd say for me I'd rate this around a 3.8. you have decent sized blocks, plenty of resurrection ability to offset skellies weak stats.

I like the this, this is just my assessment of why I'd rate it.

[King Mekhet]

Thanks Drak and Flava, that's exactly the sort of feedback I'm looking for. I read over the scoring system and seems to pretty drastically penalize "harder" lists, so softening it up without crippling the playability is the key.

I could probably soften the blender by dropping Ogre Blade for Nightshroud and a Great Weapon, which would give him a better balance between blenderiness and survivability. I could also drop the hero necro by putting the dispel scroll on the level 4 and dropping Black Periapt. Any other suggestions? Preferably ones that don't affect the maneuverability of the list (which comprises the bulk of what I'm loving about this list at the moment).

[Talapas]

I think the list seems good as is. I wouldn't worry too much about making a bunch of changes unless you really want to. I would say submit it and see what the rating committee says.

[King Mekhet]

I think the list seems good as is. I wouldn't worry too much about making a bunch of changes unless you really want to. I would say submit it and see what the rating committee says.

 

My issue is that the whole "divide your battle score by your comp" is a pretty crippling disadvantage if your list is rated significantly above a 3. A 3.8, for instance, means you get the same points for winning by 299 victory points as you do for losing by 699 victory points with a 2.7. You need 21% more battle points with a 3.8 just to break even with where you would be with a 3.0.

 

As a middling-at-best general that's actually a pretty big handicap to overcome. I'd rather run something softer that I can still have fun with, and not feel like I've gimped my ability to do well by bringing a list that the ratings committee will perceive as stronger.

 

With that in mind, here's an attempt at something a little softer:

Lords:

King Mekhet

Vampire Lord

Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Hellsteed

Night Shroud, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard

Quickblood, Red Fury

Level 4 (Vampires)

 

Heroes:

Queen Iset (Coven Throne)

Shield, Lance, Coven Throne

Armour of Destiny

Red Fury

Level 2 (Shadow)

 

Vizier Neferkare

Vampire

Level 2 (Shadow)

Dispel Scroll

 

Core:

4x5 Dogs

2x40 skeletons (FC)

1x15 skeletons (champ, Standard)

 

Special:

6 Crypt Horrors (Champ)

1 Spirit Host

4 Vargheists (Champ)

4 Vargheists (Champ)

 

 

Rare:

1 Terrorgheist

 

 

Total: 2797

Master Necro + Hex Wraiths by get axed in favour of a coven throne for the Queen. Baby necro gets axed in favour of a caster vamp scroll caddie. Both will be level 2 shadow. Without Black Periapt I'm a bit worried about how reliable my magic phase is going to be, but I'm pretty tight on points and a Master Necro with the Periapt wasn't going to fit.

 

Not really sure how I feel about this list. My blender definitely isn't as good, but he's a more survivable to make up for it so I won't be as afraid of throwing him into stuff. Coven throne might be kind of cool, though holy hell is it expensive.

 

The plus side is that this is almost identical to my 2,500 point list save for the character loadouts. Also a coven throne might be kind of cool, as will 4 levels in shadow. I don't like not having the periapt, but then I can't fit that at 2,500 points either so I'm used to running without it.

[Drak]

For me as a vamps player when I'm looking at our lists ratings I think "what is it that my opponents have consistently not liked facing?" usually the answer is 1)blender lords 2)TG 3)ethereal/hexwraiths 4)lots of ION

 

the changes you made I think improved your score but unfortunately I think common community perception (not saying the rating committee will do this) will see a blender lord (nightshroud with the great weapon didn't really change much, and may have made him better for most) another vamp with red fury and a tg. it's been my experience that when a single model (be it your lord or your coven throne vamp) can kill 8-10 models at one go (and they very well can with red fury and Danse Macabre) they start to dislike that potential. and that's really what I'm seein with your list, potential.

I think your in the right power range of a 3.3.

 

if you wanted to soften it up more you could take one vamp with red fury, or drop one of the elements on the blender lord (red fury, quickblood, str 7) and I think you'd be at a 3.

 

I'm still excited about seeing this list in action!

[King Mekhet]

For me as a vamps player when I'm looking at our lists ratings I think "what is it that my opponents have consistently not liked facing?" usually the answer is 1)blender lords 2)TG 3)ethereal/hexwraiths 4)lots of ION

 

the changes you made I think improved your score but unfortunately I think common community perception (not saying the rating committee will do this) will see a blender lord (nightshroud with the great weapon didn't really change much, and may have made him better for most) another vamp with red fury and a tg. it's been my experience that when a single model (be it your lord or your coven throne vamp) can kill 8-10 models at one go (and they very well can with red fury and Danse Macabre) they start to dislike that potential. and that's really what I'm seein with your list, potential.

I think your in the right power range of a 3.3.

 

if you wanted to soften it up more you could take one vamp with red fury, or drop one of the elements on the blender lord (red fury, quickblood, str 7) and I think you'd be at a 3.

 

I'm still excited about seeing this list in action!

 

To be frank, I think vampires without S7+RF are dead points. A fully kitted vampire lord costs as much as 5 skullcrushers. S7+RF is what lets the vampire compete against a killy unit like that. If they're not killing 6/7 models each a turn (8-10 is actually pretty unlikely against anything save infantry) then they're not earning enough points to justify their price tag. The vamps are also the only reliable anti-armour tool in the army (in the 7 games I've played with this army, I've seen the terrorgheist live past turn 2 in one of them). EDIT: I meant "in my army."

 

Basically, without the blender build on my vamp this army is actually surprisingly easy to defang (...heh...). The vargheists tend to bounce off anything that either hits before them or has decent survivability (trolls, 1+ saves, etc). The coven throne is a single cannonball away from death, and isn't that killy outside the charge. Once those three units are gone I really don't have much in my army that can kill stuff.

 

If anything is going to get cut it's probably the terrorgheist. When it's allowed to operate unmolested it's amazing (and I imagine quite frustrating for my opponent), but too many armies have too many tools of dealing with it. I'm not willing to part with the blender lord, but the terrorgheist I could live without. I also get really annoyed trying to find landing pads for it that don't open up charges to its ridonculously ginormous base. 95% of the reason I'm taking it is simply to draw attention (both from a modelling perspective and fire-magnet purposes).

 

So attempt number three:

Lords:

King Mekhet

Vampire Lord

Heavy Armour, Shield, Hellsteed

Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard

Quickblood, Red Fury

Level 1 (Vampires)

 

Vizier Neferkare

Master Necromancer

Level 4 (Vampires)

Black Periapt

 

Heroes:

Queen Iset

Heavy Armour, Lance, shield, Hellsteed

Dawnstone, dragonhelm, potion of foolhardiness

Red Fury

Level 2 (Shadow)

 

Princess Ahi

Vampire

Additional Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour

Dispel Scroll

Level 2 (Shadow)

 

Core:

4x5 Dogs

2x39 skeletons (FC)

1x15 skeletons (champ, standard)

 

Special:

6 Crypt Horrors

8 Hex Wraiths (Champ)

1 Spirit Host

3 Fell Bats

4 Vargheists (Champ)

4 Vargheists (Champ)

 

Total: 2799

 

Terrorgheist + Coven Throne gets traded for 8 hex wraiths + a Master Necro. Not as exciting, but 8 hex wraiths aren't as scary as a terrorgheist and they also give me something to deal with trolls (which I realized in my game last night I'm quite lacking). Queen is back on a hellsteed (meaning I can use the model I'm making for Wet Coast, and don't need to build a coven throne).

 

I actually like this list a lot more. Fewer eggs in my VL's basket, and the MN will be central enough to support the skeletons. I'm not a huge fan of the terrorgheist anyways, so dropping it isn't a big deal. I was starting to look forward to scratch-building a coven throne, but it's going to be difficult enough to get this army done in time for September without a huge project like that and honestly it's just sooooooooooooooo many points for what it does. I also have a GREAT model for my caster vamp, so I'm excited to see that one in play as well. For fluff reasons I want to give her beguile but I just couldn't find points for it.

 

So what do you guys think of this? No black knight bus, no terrorgheist, no grave guard, skeletons instead of zombies (and without Master of the Dead), crypt horrors without a mortis engine, and two easily targetable vampires. The only thing particularly "netlisty" is the vampire build.

[Drak]

I completely agree with your assessment above. I think your current version is a good build. it will be interesting to see what the committee thinks.

[King Mekhet]

Just realized that without the Terrorgheist I only have 5 fortitude. Dropped champions off the vargheists in favour of making my caster vamp a BSB. Having run Tomb Kings for almost two years now I have faith that I'll be able to protect that wizard bunker, and with M6 she'll be able to relocate as necessary. That gives me 6 fortitude, letting me lose both skeleton units, my bunker, or my general before things start getting hairy.

I also just noticed that I could add 3 fortitude to my army by dropping the fell bats for 2 single cold ones and a single sabretusk. That's a bit silly...

[King Mekhet]

Someone also just pointed out to me that, while my army is certainly themed artistically, the "Khemrian" theme won't come across on paper since we're not allowed to submit them with names or descriptive information. It just looks like a mishmash of choices, arguably there for competitive reasons. So I did up a list swapping the crypt horrors for grave guard to get more of an "all skeleton" theme.

 

 

Lords:

King Mekhet
Vampire Lord
Heavy Armour, Shield, Hellsteed
Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard
Quickblood, Red Fury
Level 1 (Vampires)

Vizier Neferkare
Master Necromancer
Level 4 (Vampires)
Dispel Scroll

Heroes:
Queen Iset
Heavy Armour, Lance, shield, Hellsteed
Dawnstone, dragonhelm, potion of foolhardiness
Red Fury
Level 2 (Shadow)

Core:

4x5 Dogs

2x39 skeletons (FC)

1x15 skeletons (champ, standard)

Special:

35 Grave Guard (FC, banner of the barrows)

6 Hex Wraiths (Champ)

1 Spirit Host

2 Fell Bats

4 Vargheists (Champ)

4 Vargheists (Champ)

Total: 2793

 

 

Disappointed to lose the two casters on shadow, but them's the breaks.

Thoughts on this list? It appears a little more "thematic" on paper, but honestly it looks like a much harder list to me objectively. On the plus side I have 33 fully painted Tomb Guard to throw in here who are pretty gorgeous, if I must say so myself. So tough to say. This list would certainly be closer to painted, and wouldn't require that I finish my fully scratch-built "mummy" crypt horrors.

[King Mekhet]

Not related to the list, but I updated my Painting Log on Warseer for those interested.

[ratrek]

Not using those Grave Guard that you've done up would be a travesty. Those are excellently rendered.

[Drak]

agreed, but I would have loved to see mummified horros!

[Raindog]

The second list is about perfect. Nice list. 

[King Mekhet]

Haha, thanks guys!

It's really going to come down on how well the crypt horrors come along. I'm planning to get them done in time for Wet Coast but that's a bit aggressive. We'll see how things come along. I built a list that squeezes another shadow vamp into the GG list which I like a bit more. Problem is it cuts the master necro and black periapt which I don't like quite as much, but them's the breaks: GG are expensive.

 

In the end it's going to come down to time, since running the Grave Guard means I have 500 points of models already painted. I'll choose between those two lists and see how things go from there.

Anways, as I said before I think the GG list is too hard for OFCC so here's my ammended version. It includes almost all the models I want except the fellbats.

 

 

 

Lords:

Vizier Neferkare
Master Necromancer
Level 4 (Vampires)
Black Periapt, Obsidian Amulet

Heroes:

King Mekhet
Heavy Armour, Hellsteed
Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield  (S6, 2+rerollable)
Red Fury
Level 1 (Vampires)

Queen Iset
Heavy Armour, Lance, shield, Hellsteed
Talisman of Preservation, Potion of Foolhardiness (3+4++)
Red Fury
Level 2 (Shadow)

 

Princess Ahi

Vampire
Additional Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour

Dispel Scroll
Level 2 (Shadow)

 

Core:

4x5 Dogs

2x39 skeletons (FC)

1x15 skeletons (champ, standard)

Special:

34 Grave Guard (FC, banner of the barrows)

6 Hex Wraiths (Champ)

1 Spirit Host

4 Vargheists (Champ)

4 Vargheists (Champ)

Total: 2796

 

 

It's definitely been hit with the nerfbat. No rare choices, LD8 general and no vamp lord. I like my magic phase though, and the grave guard will make up for losing the vampire hopefully. This uses all my existing character models so that's a big plus as well.

[King Mekhet]

The second list is about perfect. Nice list. 

Thanks! Which is that though, the Coven Throne list? If that list were rated around a 3.0 it'd probably be my preference. That or the following one without a terrorgheist but with the MN and three vamps.

[King Mekhet]

So I have 3 practice games in now with the flying vampire lord, and I must say that I'm not overly impressed with him. He's too expensive and too vulnerable to want to risk running around on his own, and I've recently been thoroughly convinced that I indeed cannot charge two characters out of the same unit (ruining my plan of charging them out from behind the safety of a crypt horror wall). I've also found that they have difficulties breaking anything, since all my mobile vampire units (including the vargheists) are incapable of breaking steadfast.

As a result I've switched over to the idea of running them both as hero-level vampires instead (since I love the models I have for them, and want to make them work somehow). Instead of running them with Red Fury I've given them both Aura of Dark Majesty to help them break steadfast units. Additionally I've switched them from Shadow to Death, since I found the former had too many high-cost spells to really be of use on a level 2.
 

 

 

Lords

 

260pts

Vizier Neferkare (General) 
Master Necro 
Black Periapt

Heroes

269pts

King Mekhet 
Vampire 
Aura of Dark Majesty, Heavy Armour, Hellsteed, Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Level 2 (Death)

264pts

Queen Ahi 
Vampire 
AoDM, HA, Shield, Lance, Night Shroud, Dragonbane Gem, Level 2 (Death)

90pts

Priest Skraul Khaddie 
Necro 
Level 1 (Vampires), Dispel Scroll

Minimum Core

220pts

Skeletons 1 
skeletons x37 
FC

220pts

Skeletons 2 
skeletons x37 
FC

105pts

Skeleton Bunker 
skeletons x15 
Champ, Standard of Discipline

80pts

4x5 Dogs 
Direwolves x10 
none

 

Special

488pts

Royal Guard
Grave Guard x34 
Great Weapons, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows

150pts

Hex Wraiths 
Hex Wraiths x5 
none

194pts

Vargs 1 
Vargheists x4 
Champ

194pts

Vargs 2 
Vargheists x4 
Champ

Rare

225pts

Terrorgheist 
Terrorgheist x1 
none

 

Total: 2799

 

 

The version of the list I'm running right now at 2,500 has crypt horrors instead of the grave guard, but is otherwise pretty much the same. I really like the mobile vampires with the vargheists, it's just a matter of making them more effective and less risky. I think this list hits the right balance.

[Mach_5]

It looks fun, although the vamps seem squishy to me but then its just a very different list to what I am used to running.   Necrolord with no vamplord is not too common, so would be great to see.

 

You're probably aware already, but just wanted to point out Aura of Dark Majesty doesn't stack; though of course having it twice will help increase the number of enemy units that can be affected.

[King Mekhet]

It looks fun, although the vamps seem squishy to me but then its just a very different list to what I am used to running.   Necrolord with no vamplord is not too common, so would be great to see.

 

You're probably aware already, but just wanted to point out Aura of Dark Majesty doesn't stack; though of course having it twice will help increase the number of enemy units that can be affected.

Oops. Blast, I actually didn't catch that. Saw "this penalty is cumulative..." and my beardy mind took over. The pains of learning a new book.

 

Hmmm. I can switch one vamp over to Red Fury by dropping a Varg but only -1 LD isn't going to be breaking much. I'm going to be much more reliant on D&D if that's the case, which I don't like.

 

As for squishiness, it's definitely a concern of mine. 2+ rerollable is strong, while I was hoping that the Nightshroud+Beguile combo would protect the other one (or both, when running them together). The other option is dragonhelm + dawnstone on one and enchanted shield + tal of pres on the other, for 2+RR and 2+4++. Makes them both tanky, though without Red Fury not very killy. I could also give them BOTH Red Fury, though I'm kind of liking the -1LD in conjunction with Death. We'll have to test it out over a few games.

 

As for the lack of a Blender Lord, it's definitely giving up a good tool. However I really like the flying vampires angle, and I'm trying hard to make it work. I disliked the risk of my general flying around on his own, though perhaps I should give my list another shot first. Or perhaps swap RF out for Beguile + AoDM on my old build.

 

...choices...