Brutal but Kunnin' - Kunnin' but Brutal (Ork Rumors?)

[Guest]

...seeing as how Orks weren't dominating the competitive play circuit in any way...

To be fair, high model count armies tend to not be fielded as much in compeditive play. Time for moving models is typically reducing the total play time of the event. Cash or paint time costs of such armies are also huge limitations. Orks and tyranids especially, have some pretty viable builds that don't get seen in events due to the sheer number of models required to field them.

 

Seriously, how many Grots can your army really kill per turn? A good number of armies really can't cope with 198 troops models at 720pts (and that's last edition's prices, probably cheaper now).

[fluger]

The thing with grots is this:

 

1.  They don't kill anything.  So, yes, it takes a while to get rid of them, but they aren't damaging the enemy either.

2.  You don't need to kill ALL of them to get rid of them.  Just break them and have them run away.  Their leadership isn't that hot event with a runtherd and re-rolls.  Additionally, assaulting them and winning (pretty much a guarantee) means you can sweeping advance them off the table.  

3.  They get in the owning player's way almost as much as the enemy.  You start running into real issues in deployment and movement with all those bodies clogging up the table.  

[scottshoemaker]

@Rcnjack, when you are ready to rage quit let me know. I'll gladly clear your shelf space.

[Guest]

The thing with grots is this:

 

1.  They don't kill anything.  So, yes, it takes a while to get rid of them, but they aren't damaging the enemy either.

2.  You don't need to kill ALL of them to get rid of them.  Just break them and have them run away.  Their leadership isn't that hot event with a runtherd and re-rolls.  Additionally, assaulting them and winning (pretty much a guarantee) means you can sweeping advance them off the table.  

3.  They get in the owning player's way almost as much as the enemy.  You start running into real issues in deployment and movement with all those bodies clogging up the table.  

In a tournament, this sort of army has a few merits. Basically, it takes a semi-cheesy approach to win the game by simply clocking out the opponent. Long movement phases, mean less time to actually play the game, which in turn, means less ability to remove the units from the table. Yeah, it abuses the confines of the tournament setting, but then again, that's what tournament lists tend to focus on.

 

As for making them flee, again, same issue, it becomes about numbers. 25% to cause a morale check, with 33 per squad, ~9 models lost for a moral check, and while the models themselves lack saves, they are short and easy to gain cover saves or prevent shooting at portions of the unit due to LOS limitations. The grots also have a limited ability to retest moral checks, even if the odds really don't improve much.

 

The other big concern is that the 720pts for 198 models in last edition's book doesn't even constitute half of most tournament point limits. It also doesn't really go dramatically beyond what many armies spend on their troops slots anyway. So, yeah, focus on elimination of my horrible grot infantry and don't focus on the other half of my army.

 

With ~198 models I can "coat" my deployment zone to make my vehicles or other units virtually immune to turn 1 DS armies and often to later turn DS armies. Enemy non-hover flyers will also face huge issues with this type of list, while flying MCs will also face major issues getting to assault the things that matter.

 

Anyway, the tactic is certainly viable, but many events frown on this sort of model count, especially if they move around the table a lot (unlike IG, which just sit there). Allies of convenience, especially those with long range, but weak melee, fit beautifully with this approach, as the grot screens mean a few extra turns of potent shooting.

 

In terms of obvious weak points, psychic powers that strike via leadership or otherwise cause morale without actually losing models can be a challenge. Tank shock also presents a legitimate threat against grot units. Granted, this is just troops of an army, and likely less than half the points of a single CAD, so these weak points can certainly be resolved.

 

Same tactic is just as viable with tyranids, though the new IB rules present a new issue. Chaos with cultist spam too. IG as well.

 

Still, you won't see it much, especially at events which require completely painted models. It's just a very expensive ($) army with a huge painting requirement and a very demanding transportation requirement.

[fluger]

Pax, I love hordes, but the difference between guard and grots is that grots don't do damage. 

 

I regularly play with 150ish models in most of my armies and I struggle to fit them all in a useful manner.  You are seriously going to run out of space with that many grots.  There's no two ways about it.  I'd rather see 180 choppa boyz on the table as they can actually do damage.  At 220 pts per (with nob with pk/bp) that'll cost 1320, Green tide is actually a sensible option IMO.  Get 30 stormboyz with Zagstruk as your HQ for another 375 for 1695 in points. 160 for 2 deff dreads (big winners with the new smash nerf on MCs) and then 150 for 5 traktor kannons.  That's 2005 pts, but you could drop one ork and viola!  210 Orks, 2 deff dreads, and 5 AA units.  Sweet!  :D  

[galahad911]

In a tournament, this sort of army has a few merits. Basically, it takes a semi-cheesy approach to win the game by simply clocking out the opponent. Long movement phases, mean less time to actually play the game, which in turn, means less ability to remove the units from the table. Yeah, it abuses the confines of the tournament setting, but then again, that's what tournament lists tend to focus on.

 

As for making them flee, again, same issue, it becomes about numbers. 25% to cause a morale check, with 33 per squad, ~9 models lost for a moral check, and while the models themselves lack saves, they are short and easy to gain cover saves or prevent shooting at portions of the unit due to LOS limitations. The grots also have a limited ability to retest moral checks, even if the odds really don't improve much.

 

The other big concern is that the 720pts for 198 models in last edition's book doesn't even constitute half of most tournament point limits. It also doesn't really go dramatically beyond what many armies spend on their troops slots anyway. So, yeah, focus on elimination of my horrible grot infantry and don't focus on the other half of my army.

 

With ~198 models I can "coat" my deployment zone to make my vehicles or other units virtually immune to turn 1 DS armies and often to later turn DS armies. Enemy non-hover flyers will also face huge issues with this type of list, while flying MCs will also face major issues getting to assault the things that matter.

 

Anyway, the tactic is certainly viable, but many events frown on this sort of model count, especially if they move around the table a lot (unlike IG, which just sit there). Allies of convenience, especially those with long range, but weak melee, fit beautifully with this approach, as the grot screens mean a few extra turns of potent shooting.

 

 

There has been a very recent movement among the bigger events that if you consistently time out and games aren't ever completed they do take note of it and will act against you intentionally playing that "tactic." There is a reason why ToF has a check box for whether or not the game came to a natural completion.

[Threejacks]

@Rcnjack, when you are ready to rage quit let me know. I'll gladly clear your shelf space.

lol...naa I wont quit,il just try some of the new toys,get curbstomped then probably hop back over to my AM or maybe try to get my tau on the table finally...and I still need to get some Squig herders together to add to my Goblin OnG army.

 

Then it will be back to Da Boyz again!

...for more punishment,lol

 

However I do need to start selling something off the shelf to pay for all the Bikers I want to get..hum,maybe I don't need that Aquila Strongpoint afterall.

[Guest]

There has been a very recent movement among the bigger events that if you consistently time out and games aren't ever completed they do take note of it and will act against you intentionally playing that "tactic." There is a reason why ToF has a check box for whether or not the game came to a natural completion.

hmmm...perhaps they've made this tactic obsolete. Thought it adds to my point with regards to not seeing this sort of army at tournaments.

 

I do think that much of the point of a tournament goes to how to best manipulate the confines of the tournament restrictions. OFCC excluded, of course . Tournaments seem to be focused on determining which armies are best within a particular set of rules or conditions. I'm not just speaking about 40k tournaments, but the concept in general.

[Guest]

However I do need to start selling something off the shelf to pay for all the Bikers I want to get..hum,maybe I don't need that Aquila Strongpoint afterall.

Is it converted? I'd love to arrange a trade for an unconverted aquilla (it wouldn't be going to orks..).

 

As for rules, I do think it got better with the damage table now requiring 7+ to destroy outright a mighty bulwark.

[pretre]

New warboss?

 

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